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Old May 12th, 2009, 04:34 AM   #1
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Origin of AIDS?

There is a conspiracy theory that AIDS was a result of a vaccine that was developed by scientists so was in effect man-made. Do you think this is true?

More info on this in Wikipedia:
[COLOR=darkred]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_origins_opposed_to_scientific_consensus
Quote:
There are a number of ideas about AIDS which make claims about the origins and/or nature of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and AIDS that differ radically from scientific consensus. These range from suggestions that AIDS was the inadvertent result of experiments in the development of vaccines, to claims that HIV was developed by scientists working for the U.S. government. While at some point in the past, some of these theories were investigated as reasonable hypotheses within the scientific community, this is no longer the case: present evidence is taken by the vast majority of the scientific community, to indicate that AIDS originated in Africa in the mid 1930s from the closely related Simian immunodeficiency virus, today found in monkeys and chimpanzees (see AIDS origin).
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Old May 12th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #2
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As far as I know, AIDS came from monkeys, like what is stated from your quote, which are transferred to humans(I don't know by what means), like how Influenza A came from swines.

And from what I read in your post, I can't really believe that it came from human scientific experiments. I'm just a little confused on where will they use that experiment, for a biological warfare?
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Old May 12th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #3
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I doubt it.

There is a similar theory for every disease. Swine Flu's theory came out in 1 day.

The standard theory is out there for a reason. It makes perfect sense and is traceable.

I don't really see any motivation for creating AIDS either. It was far from a designer illness.
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I believe that it was transferred because they were eating large portions of the monkeys (I heard brains a few years back, but I'm not sure if that necessarily holds true). Some group managed to infect themselves. The nature of Africa is that most countries have large mobile male populations. These men carried the disease and it took strong hold. Also a bit of a sleeper disease.

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Old May 13th, 2009, 06:18 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GekiDan View Post
As far as I know, AIDS came from monkeys, like what is stated from your quote, which were transferred to humans (I don't know by what means).
That's right. The means was blood, mate.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 03:03 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GekiDan View Post
As far as I know, AIDS came from monkeys, like what is stated from your quote, which are transferred to humans(I don't know by what means), like how Influenza A came from swines.

And from what I read in your post, I can't really believe that it came from human scientific experiments. I'm just a little confused on where will they use that experiment, for a biological warfare?
Difficult for me to wrap my mind around AIDS coming from monkeys. To me it looks like a very complicated disease, the solution that is suggested, i.e. from monkeys just looks to simple for me.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 05:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanhills View Post
Difficult for me to wrap my mind around AIDS coming from monkeys. To me it looks like a very complicated disease, the solution that is suggested, i.e. from monkeys just looks to simple for me.
Oh, i see, you're taking the conspiracy thing literally.

It evolved from SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus) into HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus). AIDS (Acquired ImmunoDeficiency Syndrome) is caused by this virus. It weakens the immune system and so makes them much more susceptible to tumours and more simple health issues. However, they cannot be suppressed and so the person is affected out of all proportion.

At first, it was called GRID (Gay-Related Immuno-Deficiency) but was renamed when it was found that there was no connection to sexual orientation (or indeed, gender).

One conspiracy was that HIV doesn't exist and AIDS is caused by the meds the doctors treat you with. But that was thoroughly discredited by the scientific community. Obviously.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:15 AM   #7
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As has been pointed out, there is always a conspiracy theory.

We have just seen a virus from swine, birds, and humans combine, possibly in a human host, to make a new virus. The virus is quite complicated because of its different origins, but the disease is not. I don't think you can relate complicated sources to complicated diseases.

Viruses are the ultimate proof of evolution. They are always evolving to find a way to continue to propogate. They change so fast that it the virus at the end of a flu season has already mutated a great deal. That mutation out in the world makes viruses exceptionally dangerous and exceptionally safe. We have had cases where a particularly virulent virus mutated so rapidly that by the time it went through just a few hosts it lost its potency.
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Old May 16th, 2009, 10:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by curious View Post
We have just seen a virus from swine, birds, and humans combine, possibly in a human host, to make a new virus. The virus is quite complicated because of its different origins, but the disease is not. I don't think you can relate complicated sources to complicated diseases.
I have heard that a vaccine or medicine have already been made for Influenza A H1N1. And if you self medicate it, it will just make the virus immune to that medicine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk
That's right. The means was blood, mate.
What I'm thinking is how does the monkey's blood been transfered to a human. they can't just put the monkey's blood in a syringe and inject it on a human, isn't it?
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Old May 17th, 2009, 05:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GekiDan View Post
I have heard that a vaccine or medicine have already been made for Influenza A H1N1. And if you self medicate it, it will just make the virus immune to that medicine.


What I'm thinking is how does the monkey's blood been transfered to a human. they can't just put the monkey's blood in a syringe and inject it on a human, isn't it?
Agreed on both counts. I think the same thing is happening with anti-biotics. I wonder whether this is the way that auto-immune diseases start as well? The monkey blood theory also has me puzzled. I found the following in Wikipedia:
Quote:
HIV is thought to have originated in non-human primates in sub-Saharan Africa and transferred to humans early in the 20th century. The first paper recognizing a pattern of opportunistic infections was published on 4 June 1981.
Two species of HIV infect humans: HIV-1 and HIV-2. Both species of the virus are believed to have originated in West-Central Africa and jumped species (zoonosis) from a non-human primate to humans. HIV-1 is thought to have originated in southern Cameroon after jumping from wild chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes troglodytes) to humans during the twentieth century. It evolved from a Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIVcpz)[20] HIV-2, on the other hand, may have originated from the Sooty Mangabey (Cercocebus atys), an Old World monkey of Guinea-Bissau, Gabon, and Cameroon.
New World Monkeys are an interesting exception to the transmission of HIV. Their immunity is believed to be caused by retrotransposition of the Cyclophilin gene into an intron of TRIM5. The result is fusion gene that provides the owl monkey with resistance to HIV-1 infection.
The infection from monkeys could have been through blood in open wounds.
Quote:
While it is possible that SIV infected the first human being via sexual intercourse, authorities believe that the most likely mode of original transmission was via wounds.
Refer: [COLOR=darkred]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simian_Immunodeficiency_Virus
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Old May 18th, 2009, 10:24 PM   #10
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Well, all those quotes makes me think that the first person who is infected by AIDS have zoophilia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Zoophilia, from the Greek ζῷον (zṓion, "animal") and φιλία (philia, "friendship" or "love"), also known as bestiality, is the practice of sexual relations between humans and animals, or a preference or fixation on such practice. A person who practices zoophilia is known as a zoophile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia
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Old May 20th, 2009, 05:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GekiDan View Post
Well, all those quotes makes me think that the first person who is infected by AIDS have zoophilia?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia
Wrong thinking. It was not passed on sexually, but through open wounds and blood in contact with open wounds.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 11:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanhills View Post
Wrong thinking. It was not passed on sexually, but through open wounds and blood in contact with open wounds.
Well, I think you are right.
But did you know how those monkeys first got HIV?
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Old May 23rd, 2009, 07:05 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GekiDan View Post
Well, I think you are right.
But did you know how those monkeys first got HIV?
SIV. H stands for Human. S stands for Simian.

I would imagine it made a species jump somewhat similar to that which invoked HIV. Or maybe it was passed on through the stages of their evolution from a previous animal that had it.

Does anyone know for sure or will we have to research this one?
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Old May 24th, 2009, 02:01 AM   #14
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So that's it...
I really do think that we need to research more or we do need some experts in these kinds of discussions to enlighten us on what really happened and how it really transferred to humans.
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Old May 24th, 2009, 10:51 PM   #15
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Instead of talking about what if's and , or why not talk about the first time it was discovered and in what cities it started spreading and how did it spread. I see parakeet is talking about the african monkey theory, but its full of leaks as it doesnt seem to take into account that at the same time it was spreading in africa it was also spreading in new york and san fran. we all know that parakeet holds to the notion that there are no conspriacies for anything on earth. A notion that is also extreme in one way. The spread of knowledge requires an open mind unless you believe that the masses are created to be sheep for the rich and powerful.

Last edited by pingpong12; May 25th, 2009 at 12:53 AM.
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Old May 25th, 2009, 12:56 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pingpong12 View Post
Instead of talking about what if's and , or why not talk about the first time it was discovered and in what cities it started spreading and how did it spread. I see parakeet is talking about the african monkey theory, but its full of leaks as it doesnt seem to take into account that at the same time it was spreading in africa it was also spreading in new york and san fran. we all know that parakeet holds to the notion that there are no conspriacies for anything on earth. A notion that is also extreme in one way. The spread of knowledge requires an open mind unless you believe that the masses are created to be sheep for the rich and powerful.
Good points, so which theory to you think is the more viable one and maybe you can fill in the gap about the first time it was discovered and why you think that is meaningful?
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Old May 25th, 2009, 11:06 PM   #17
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I thought you'd left us PingPong. I was starting to miss you. Thanks for the ad hom attack too, always a sign of strength for one's argument . I miss you a bit though. Wish you'd post a bit more. Lots of room for discussion thanks to a few new members.

On a second note...I don't refuse to believe that conspiracy theories have happened. They definitely have. We've studied them. They show a number of issues that would plague other conspiracies. I've discussed that at length in other threads. I also acknowledge that some cool false flag attacks, conspiracies, scandals, etc. have all happened. It just so happens that the ones you like to believe in don't have any evidence to support them. All I do is examine the evidence and find a conclusion.

It's a shame that the facts don't line up with your AIDS theory.

The first cases in the US were found in 1981. 5 young men who inexplicably had bad respiratory diseases.

Source - CDC http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/PDF/wk/mm5021.pdf

It looks like it was starting to spread in Africa during the early 1900s though, but it is hard to tell due to communication issues.

I'll just copy and paste the wikipedia stuff to save time. Explains the spread well.

Quote:
Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_AIDS

Most HIV researchers agree that HIV evolved from the closely related Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV), and that HIV was transferred from non-human primates to humans in the recent past (as a type of zoonosis). Research in this area is conducted using molecular phylogenetics, comparing viral genomic sequences to determine relatedness.

[edit] HIV-1 spread from chimpanzees


[edit] Where

Because HIV-1 is closely related to a strain of the simian immunodeficiency virus that infects the chimpanzee subspecies Pan troglodytes troglodytes (SIVcpz), scientists generally accept[4][5] that the virus originated in populations of wild chimpanzees in West-Central Africa.[6] Exactly where this occurred—in the southeastern rain forests of Cameroon (modern East Province) near the Sanaga River, or further south near Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of the Congo—has been a matter of scientific discussion.[7][6][8]

[edit] When

Using HIV-1 sequences preserved in human biological samples along with estimates of viral mutation rates, scientists calculate that the jump from chimpanzee to human probably happened during the late 19th or early 20th century, a time of rapid urbanisation and colonisation in equatorial Africa. Exactly when the zoonosis occurred is not known. Some estimates suggest that HIV-1 (group M) entered the human population in the early 20th century, probably between 1915 and 1941.[9][10] A study published in 2008, analyzing viral sequences recovered from a recently-discovered 1960 biopsy along with previously-known sequences, suggested a common ancestor between 1884 and 1924.[11][12]
Genetic recombination had earlier been thought to "seriously confound" such phylogenetic analysis, but later "work has suggested that recombination is not likely to systematically bias [results]", although recombination is "expected to increase variance".[2] The results of the study supported the later work and indicated that HIV evolves "fairly reliably".[11][13]

[edit] How

According to the 'Hunter Theory', the "simplest and most plausible explanation for the cross-species transmission",[4] the virus was transmitted from a chimpanzee to a human when a bushmeat hunter was bitten or cut while hunting or butchering an animal. The resulting exposure of the hunter to blood or other bodily fluids of the chimpanzee could have resulted in infection.[14]

[edit] Method of spread

Zoonosis (transfer of a pathogen from non-human animals to humans) and subsequent spread of the pathogen between humans, requires the following conditions:
  1. a human population;
  2. a nearby population of a host animal;
  3. an infectious pathogen in the host animal that can spread from animal to human;
  4. interaction between the species to transmit enough of the pathogen to humans to establish a human foothold, which could have taken millions of individual exposures;
  5. ability of the pathogen to spread from human to human (perhaps acquired by mutation);
  6. some method allowing the pathogen to disperse widely, preventing the infection from "burning out" by either killing off its human hosts or provoking immunity in a local population of humans.
Such requirements existed for smallpox and for the 20th century Spanish flu at Fort Riley, Kansas, where the animal reservoir seems to have been two species, chickens and pigs.[citation needed]
Conditions introduced by colonisation may have been conducive to the spread of the virus. The hardships of forced labour could have suppressed the immune system of the initial hunter, allowing the virus to infect and take hold in a new host. Rapid urbanisation brought infected people into close contact with others, and colonial commerce provided opportunities for further geographical spread.[12] Vaccination campaigns against illnesses such as sleeping sickness may have sped the initial spread of HIV-1 when immunisation needles were re-used.[15] Other technological and social disruptions, especially those that affected the food supply and the hunting of bushmeat, may also have promoted the cross-over from chimpanzees and the spread amongst humans.[16]
SIV in non-human primates tends to cause a non-fatal disease. Comparison of the gene sequence of SIV with HIV should therefore give us information about the factors necessary to cause disease in humans. The factors that determine the virulence of HIV as compared to most SIVs are only now being elucidated. Non-human SIVs contain a nef gene that down-regulates CD3, CD4, and MHC class I expression; most non-human SIVs therefore do not induce immunodeficiency; the HIV nef gene however has lost its ability to down-regulate CD3, which results in the immune activation and apoptosis that is characteristic of chronic HIV infection.[17]

Last edited by The Parakeet; May 25th, 2009 at 11:12 PM.
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Old May 26th, 2009, 09:16 PM   #18
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It is still puzzling though. The prerequisite facts surrounding the theory of chimpanzee (simian immunodeficiency) were around from the beginning of time. Why 1981? And why did HIV take off in such a big way whereas before there were no cases around?
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Old May 26th, 2009, 09:57 PM   #19
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Random stuff happens. There are lots of little things. Remember, we only know about the diseases that actually took off. There could have been many others that just fizzled and died in the same time period. Plus, it did take some special conditions that developed in that time period. There had to be a more mobile population brought about by modern transportation.

The rest is fairly simple. Somehow it crossed the Atlantic and made it into the gay community by chance. The nature of anal sex makes it ideal for spreading HIV, so it spread quickly. You got one guy who hooks up quietly with a few guys, who hook up with other guys, who go home to their try and have a kid with their wives, etc. Next thing you know it has a foothold. The nature of the disease also makes it a quite killer for awhile, so at the beginning it would spread quickly due to people not knowing they have it.

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Old May 27th, 2009, 09:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Parakeet View Post
Random stuff happens. There are lots of little things. Remember, we only know about the diseases that actually took off. There could have been many others that just fizzled and died in the same time period. Plus, it did take some special conditions that developed in that time period. There had to be a more mobile population brought about by modern transportation.

The rest is fairly simple. Somehow it crossed the Atlantic and made it into the gay community by chance. The nature of anal sex makes it ideal for spreading HIV, so it spread quickly. You got one guy who hooks up quietly with a few guys, who hook up with other guys, who go home to their try and have a kid with their wives, etc. Next thing you know it has a foothold. The nature of the disease also makes it a quite killer for awhile, so at the beginning it would spread quickly due to people not knowing they have it.
It has very little to do with anal sex itself, but of the social dynamics of the gay community in the 80s.
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