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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:14 PM   #1
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US-Israel relations getting shakier after administration's comments

Vice President Biden and Secretary of State Clinton were both part of some recent criticism against Israel, particularly dealing with an expansion of settlements. Pro-Israel groups are expectedly not happy with the criticism and are suggesting it could cause a right in the alliance, which could hurt peace talks.

More on this here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/...NyYWVsY3JpdA--

Thoughts?
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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #2
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I think maybe the US Government should stop funding the oppression of Palestinians if they don't want to look like hypocrites.

But I will add that it's good to criticise both the Likud and Hamas regimes.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
Vice President Biden and Secretary of State Clinton were both part of some recent criticism against Israel, particularly dealing with an expansion of settlements. Pro-Israel groups are expectedly not happy with the criticism and are suggesting it could cause a right in the alliance, which could hurt peace talks.

More on this here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/...NyYWVsY3JpdA--

Thoughts?
Well, at least it was a good test to show how powerful the Jewish are in the United States. Israel is also able to check up who their friends are in the United States. I'm almost certain Obama regrets what has happened, as that is definitely going to cost him votes and campaign contributions.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #4
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Screw Israel.

Last edited by deanhills; March 15th, 2010 at 08:03 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 08:04 PM   #5
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Screw Israel.
That sounds a bit harsh doesn't it? Why are you critical of Israel? I personally am an admirer of the country's ability to say "yes" or "no" and really mean it. Israel is also an important ally of the United States being a watch dog of a kind with the goings on in the Middle East and particularly Iran. Criticism is OK, but perhaps it was a little blunt. I'm almost certain Obama would not have approved.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Screw Israel.
Well put.

I'm sorry, criticising a Government is suddenly a move to be criticised?

My my, haven't the Americans become little totalitarians, eh?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanhills View Post
That sounds a bit harsh doesn't it? Why are you critical of Israel? I personally am an admirer of the country's ability to say "yes" or "no" and really mean it. Israel is also an important ally of the United States being a watch dog of a kind with the goings on in the Middle East and particularly Iran. Criticism is OK, but perhaps it was a little blunt. I'm almost certain Obama would not have approved.
You do know that any other nation that committed as many open acts of war would have been carpet bombed into submission and have an American flag flying over the ruins right? Indeed that would happen long before they got anywhere near the number of acts of war that Israel has committed.

Israel isn't an ally, it's an enemy that we pay and arm so they can keep attacking us and interfering with our elections while justifying Islamist terrorism against us just so our leaders can save political face.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 09:25 AM   #8
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You do know that any other nation that committed as many open acts of war would have been carpet bombed into submission and have an American flag flying over the ruins right? Indeed that would happen long before they got anywhere near the number of acts of war that Israel has committed.

Israel isn't an ally, it's an enemy that we pay and arm so they can keep attacking us and interfering with our elections while justifying Islamist terrorism against us just so our leaders can save political face.
I see it the other way round. Israel got attacked from the outside in, and it is safeguarding its territory. I still think it is a valuable ally because of its strategic position in the Middle East and maintaining some balance of power. Its surveillance tactics are world renowned. You don't mess with the Mossad. In the last war I don't think Hamas was that innocent either. They continued with the war even when they realized their presence among civilians were creating targets out of the civilians. In fact, I wonder whether they had been using civilians as human shields deliberately so that they could have those photos ready of victims within minutes of the casualties, in a zone where none of the media had been allowed. In my mind those cameras were a very large part of Hamas' arsenal.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 09:28 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by deanhills View Post
I see it the other way round. Israel got attacked from the outside in, and it is safeguarding its territory. I still think it is a valuable ally because of its strategic position in the Middle East and maintaining some balance of power. Its surveillance tactics are world renowned. You don't mess with the Mossad. In the last war I don't think Hamas was that innocent either. They continued with the war even when they realized their presence among civilians were creating targets out of the civilians. In fact, I wonder whether they had been using civilians as human shields deliberately so that they could have those photos ready of victims within minutes of the casualties, in a zone where none of the media had been allowed. In my mind those cameras were a very large part of Hamas' arsenal.
So attacking an american flagged warship in international waters isn't a red flag for you? Spy after spy being discovered? Interference in our internal affairs?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 09:31 AM   #10
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So attacking an american flagged warship in international waters isn't a red flag for you? Spy after spy being discovered? Interference in our internal affairs?
When did that happen? Israel attacking an American warship? Sounds very implausible to me. Can you give more details?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 09:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by deanhills View Post
When did that happen? Israel attacking an American warship? Sounds very implausible to me. Can you give more details?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_(AGTR-5)

Her skipper was given the Medal of Honor for his cool-headed command during the attack.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #12
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_(AGTR-5)

Her skipper was given the Medal of Honor for his cool-headed command during the attack.
Thanks for the link. It sounds as though it was not deliberate at all. Israel mistook the War ship for being Egyptian? I guess for those who really hate Israel, the conspiracy theory would be more plausible? For me it would make no sense for Israel to attack their main benefactor and supporter.
Quote:
The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli jet fighter planes and motor torpedo boats, on June 8, 1967, during the on-going Six-Day War. The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and a civilian), wounded 171 crew members, and severely damaged the ship. At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.

Both the Israeli and US governments conducted inquiries into the incident, and issued reports, which concluded that the attack was a mistake, due to Israeli confusion about the identity of the USS Liberty. Some US diplomats, veterans and intelligence officials who were involved in the incident continue to dispute these official findings, saying the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not a mistake, and it remains the only major maritime incident in US history not investigated by the US Congress.

In May 1968, the Israeli government paid US$3,323,500 as full payment to the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969, Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980, it agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the US claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.

On December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes.
Source: Wikipedia

Last edited by deanhills; March 16th, 2010 at 08:47 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 10:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanhills View Post
Thanks for the link. It sounds as though it was not deliberate at all. Israel mistook the War ship for being Egyptian? I guess for those who really hate Israel, the conspiracy theory would be more plausible? For me it would make no sense for Israel to attack their main benefactor and supporter.
Source: Wikipedia
The Egyptian ship was twice the size of the Liberty and The Crew identified themselves as American.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 04:12 AM   #14
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The Egyptian ship was twice the size of the Liberty and The Crew identified themselves as American.
It was an awesome mistake. Do you really think that Israel would do that on purpose?
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Old March 17th, 2010, 04:45 AM   #15
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It was an awesome mistake. Do you really think that Israel would do that on purpose?
Considering they were at war and it was a spy ship, yes.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 09:06 PM   #16
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Considering they were at war and it was a spy ship, yes.
That may be the reason for the accident happening. Israel was hardly at war with the United States, but if it were at war, it would be more likely to make fast decisions like this one that had turned into a great disaster.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 04:32 AM   #17
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That may be the reason for the accident happening. Israel was hardly at war with the United States, but if it were at war, it would be more likely to make fast decisions like this one that had turned into a great disaster.
So would you excuse a sub commander sinking a cruse ship because he thought it was a destroyer?
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Old March 18th, 2010, 09:15 AM   #18
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So would you excuse a sub commander sinking a cruse ship because he thought it was a destroyer?
I would investigate the matter, and then see what comes out of the facts. Apparently the verdict was that it was an enormous mistake. I would imagine however that quite a number of heads would have rolled on the Israeli side. A slip-up like this would have been seriously regarded by the top brass. To the rest of the world I am sure they would present a unified front, but amongst their own, they would have come down real hard on those who had made the mistakes.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 09:28 AM   #19
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I would investigate the matter, and then see what comes out of the facts. Apparently the verdict was that it was an enormous mistake. I would imagine however that quite a number of heads would have rolled on the Israeli side. A slip-up like this would have been seriously regarded by the top brass. To the rest of the world I am sure they would present a unified front, but amongst their own, they would have come down real hard on those who had made the mistakes.
The Egyptian ship they claimed to have mistaken it for was twice the size, the Liberty identified herself and the gov't told the Israelis that we had a ship in the area.

They didn't want us snooping around and so attacked then, being as they had attacked an ally, they came up with that blatantly false excuse and tried to buy off the families of the killed crewman. Do you really think the skipper would of gotten the MoH if it was otherwise? It was a thinly vailed warning to Israel that we knew they were BSing us as much as it was to honer him.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #20
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Was it as bad as a cruiser illegally in another nation's coastal waters shooting down a civil airliner full of passengers in their airspace killing over 200 passengers including over 65 children, then saying they thought it was a much smaller F14? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Last edited by chuck schmidt; March 18th, 2010 at 10:09 PM.
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