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View Poll Results: Should the Lockerbie bomber have been released?
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Old September 5th, 2009, 08:29 AM   #1
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Should the Lockerbie bomber have been released?

As most of you probably know, the Lockerbie bomber who killed 270 people after he bombed a plane was released today on compassionate grounds. The bomber, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi has terminal brain cancer and is expected to have 3 months to live.

As Robert Mueller put it, the Scottish government made a "mockey of the law" by doing this. Why does this guy deserve compassion? He certaintly didn't have any for his victims. And unlike them, he gets die peacefully in his own home and a free man.

What's worse is the hero's welcome he received when returning to Libya. Another slap in the face to the family of the victims.

Now that im done with my rant - what do you all think about this travesty?
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Old September 5th, 2009, 05:08 PM   #2
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As most of you probably know, the Lockerbie bomber who killed 270 people after he bombed a plane was released today on compassionate grounds. The bomber, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi has terminal brain cancer and is expected to have 3 months to live.

As Robert Mueller put it, the Scottish government made a "mockey of the law" by doing this. Why does this guy deserve compassion? He certaintly didn't have any for his victims. And unlike them, he gets die peacefully in his own home and a free man.

What's worse is the hero's welcome he received when returning to Libya. Another slap in the face to the family of the victims.

Now that im done with my rant - what do you all think about this travesty?
He should have gotten out after he won the appeal.

For several reasons, i have doubts that he did it. So do a vast number of people in Scotland. In Lockerbie itself also.

As for a "mockery of the law", it was a perfectly legal. Scots law actually left little other choice, it's been suggested.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 12:24 AM   #3
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He should have gotten out after he won the appeal.

For several reasons, i have doubts that he did it. So do a vast number of people in Scotland. In Lockerbie itself also.

As for a "mockery of the law", it was a perfectly legal. Scots law actually left little other choice, it's been suggested.
Whether people thought he did it or not is not the point. He was found guilty and sentenced as a result. I don't know much about Scots law, but it would appear to be very unfair for him to have been released. He is supposed to do penance for what he was sentenced for, not be comforted. Although maybe Scots being Scots, his hospital care may have been expensive, at least they are saving his bed as well as medical costs. So his family have to foot the bill. Maybe there is some justice in that?
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Old September 8th, 2009, 08:50 AM   #4
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Whether people thought he did it or not is not the point. He was found guilty and sentenced as a result. I don't know much about Scots law, but it would appear to be very unfair for him to have been released. He is supposed to do penance for what he was sentenced for, not be comforted. Although maybe Scots being Scots, his hospital care may have been expensive, at least they are saving his bed as well as medical costs. So his family have to foot the bill. Maybe there is some justice in that?
I would advise against blindly accepting the court's decisions. I'm always very wary. In this case, all the other people accused were acquitted. I think the court was just under a lot of pressure to prosecute SOMEONE.

He has repeatedly contested the court's decision and denied the charge. He has said that when he dies, he will have his lawyer release their evidence. He will effectively allow the Scottish People to be his post-humous jury.

I think that his appeal should have been heard. If he was acquitted in a FAIR trial, then he should have been released. THEN justice would have been served.

Was that mild racism? The Scottish NHS is free at the point of use. What is irritating is that it's not fully nationalised, so it costs more to the taxpayer and is less efficient than it should (be). But the point was that he would have been treated.
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Old September 11th, 2009, 01:45 AM   #5
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I would advise against blindly accepting the court's decisions. I'm always very wary. In this case, all the other people accused were acquitted. I think the court was just under a lot of pressure to prosecute SOMEONE.

He has repeatedly contested the court's decision and denied the charge. He has said that when he dies, he will have his lawyer release their evidence. He will effectively allow the Scottish People to be his post-humous jury.

I think that his appeal should have been heard. If he was acquitted in a FAIR trial, then he should have been released. THEN justice would have been served.

Was that mild racism? The Scottish NHS is free at the point of use. What is irritating is that it's not fully nationalised, so it costs more to the taxpayer and is less efficient than it should (be). But the point was that he would have been treated.
Again, whether right or wrong he was convicted, and a decision was taken, could not have been without evidence. No, no racism here, I was obviously being sarcastic.
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Old September 11th, 2009, 07:07 AM   #6
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He should have died in prison the first year. A country that has so little stomach to punish should not have prisons. Just a little jail for drunks on the weekend.
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Old September 11th, 2009, 03:12 PM   #7
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Again, whether right or wrong he was convicted, and a decision was taken, could not have been without evidence. No, no racism here, I was obviously being sarcastic.
He wanted an appeal. I think that appeal should have been accepted.

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He should have died in prison the first year. A country that has so little stomach to punish should not have prisons. Just a little jail for drunks on the weekend.
Well, clearly some of us don't care if the right person was convicted. Some people clearly don't give a rat's arse if the person/people that actually planned it is walking free right now. They don't give the slightest damn as long as SOMEONE gets punished. I mean, who cares if that person is actually innocent. I very much hope you're not one of those people.

Excuse me if i'm a bit coarse and undiplomatic but i'm quite fed up with the world, to be honest. Which is worrying, considering my age.
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Old September 11th, 2009, 06:22 PM   #8
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One woman's experience with Al-Megrahi and some suspicious circumstances surrounding this case:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...t-1776188.html

Reiteration of suspicious circumstances:

http://newsquake.netscape.com/2007/0...y-be-innocent/

By far the most concise and comprehensive account of the trial, suspicious circumstances and Al-Megrahi's innocence:

http://www.albertalocalnews.com/redd..._54585777.html

And finally, a candid exercise in journalism, noting the complete absurdity of the trial's basis:

http://insite2out.wordpress.com/2009...n-left-to-rot/

You'll notice i used a lot of independent journalism. I much prefer that to the mainstream tabloid excrement. There is far more truth in it.

Ironically, the only non-independent report i cited was The Independent. But it's the one with the least Government/Corporate propaganda, i find.
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Old September 12th, 2009, 05:28 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dirk View Post
He wanted an appeal. I think that appeal should have been accepted.



Well, clearly some of us don't care if the right person was convicted. Some people clearly don't give a rat's arse if the person/people that actually planned it is walking free right now. They don't give the slightest damn as long as SOMEONE gets punished. I mean, who cares if that person is actually innocent. I very much hope you're not one of those people.

Excuse me if i'm a bit coarse and undiplomatic but i'm quite fed up with the world, to be honest. Which is worrying, considering my age.
I am very fed up with the world too. And if this guy wants to play hero at home for doing it he might just be guilty. Seems at the time they put him in prison they were sure he was guilty. And they did not say he was not guilty when they let him out. So looks like to me they folded up like a cheap lawn chair. And they should still be looking for the rat bastards that had anything to do with the crime. And if they find them lock them up somewhere they can't just be turned loose because they care so much and want them to have a lovely day.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 02:30 AM   #10
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He wanted an appeal. I think that appeal should have been accepted.
Why is there always so much sympathy for people like this, analyzing, bellyaching, etc etc, yet what about the relatives whose lives have been completely disrupted beyond repair? I wish the media could focus a little more on that.

From a justice point of view, I am almost certain that if there was "reasonable doubt" evidence that this guy could have provided, that he would have got an appeal.

Amazing how he is not only released early, but now people say he has been unfairly incarcerated.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 08:19 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by deanhills View Post
Why is there always so much sympathy for people like this, analyzing, bellyaching, etc etc, yet what about the relatives whose lives have been completely disrupted beyond repair? I wish the media could focus a little more on that.

From a justice point of view, I am almost certain that if there was "reasonable doubt" evidence that this guy could have provided, that he would have got an appeal.

Amazing how he is not only released early, but now people say he has been unfairly incarcerated.
I am saying i don't think he should have been released. I think his appeal should have been heard.

If you look at the links (hint, hint) i provided, you will notice that there are some extremely suspicious circumstances surrounding the case. Not least the dodgy evidence that convicted him originally.

He did have an appeal, but the trial was a sham.

As i said rather grumpily earlier, i would want to be absolutely sure that we have, or rather, had the right guy. Released or not, would you want to go down in history as "that genocidal maniac", while in actual fact, you are completely innocent? No! Of course not! I think the actual perpetrator should be punished. I'm not of the Obama Administration's position of "it doesn't matter, so long as someone gets punished".

I think that people should step back into reality, abandon their self-righteous indignation, and take a good hard look at the cold facts.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 09:42 AM   #12
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The "cold facts" are that guilty or not he was let go to a hero's welcome to become a model for millions of little bombers to look up to. That could not have happened in many places today. Damage is done. Some will say great! Me I just lost all respect for the whole damn country. But no one cares what I think. Because I am losing respect for a lot of people in my own country.

Side note if I might: I am becoming interested in watching Obama lie and dance. Yes it shames me greatly. But how long can he keep it up?
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Old September 14th, 2009, 05:59 PM   #13
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The "cold facts" are that guilty or not he was let go to a hero's welcome to become a model for millions of little bombers to look up to. That could not have happened in many places today. Damage is done. Some will say great! Me I just lost all respect for the whole damn country. But no one cares what I think. Because I am losing respect for a lot of people in my own country.

Side note if I might: I am becoming interested in watching Obama lie and dance. Yes it shames me greatly. But how long can he keep it up?
I'm going to be brutally honest here and admit i don't care a whole lot about what people think. I do, however, care about justice. He most certainly should never have been released on compassionate grounds.

You're right, in some ways, Dodge, in that it will influence potential genocidal maniacs that if they're terminally ill and will die in the very near future, they may get away with it. But i don't think that many militant anti-American jihadists fit that criteria. Mathematically speaking.

I could even go way back and speculate that if the United States had not invaded Afghanistan in 2001, there would not have arisen such a strong anti-American culture in the Middle East, and instead, a new era of friendship and mutuality ushered in. Particularly if an American Government had the balls to stop pretending Israel is so righteous. And so there wouldn't have been many to influence.

But i've gone off on something of a non sequitur. We can't rewind time. We can't solve the fact that George Bush was an idiot. Just as we can't fix the fact that Obama has no balls. But i'll address your point on Obama.

I think that Obama has a lot of pressure on him to deliver. After his election campaign was run on vague words like "change", the American electorate were naive enough to take the word of a politician. To be fair, you (collectively) deserve everything you voted for. It was quite obvious that it was all just talk. I'm just going to make sure i upset everyone, for those individuals that voted Republican - and specifically claiming that Obama is a socialist, shame on you. You know it isn't true. You are blighting the name of socialism. Obama isn't a socialist, he's not even a proper Liberal. So, if there's anyone i haven't yet insulted in that post, i apologise for missing you out.

What i'll say about Obama lying is that all politicians lie. It comes with the job. You'll never get anywhere in politics if you speak out of anywhere other than from your rear. So i don't see how you can pretend this is any different from any other politicians. I don't see how you can pretend that John McCain or Hillary Clinton would have been any better. As for Sarah Palin, she's already proven her propensity for lying in her "death panels" idiocy. She is either extremely stupid or two-faced. Neither are qualities you'd want in someone in charge of the country.
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Old September 15th, 2009, 06:20 AM   #14
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I'm going to be brutally honest here and admit i don't care a whole lot about what people think. I do, however, care about justice. He most certainly should never have been released on compassionate grounds.

You're right, in some ways, Dodge, in that it will influence potential genocidal maniacs that if they're terminally ill and will die in the very near future, they may get away with it. But i don't think that many militant anti-American jihadists fit that criteria. Mathematically speaking.

I could even go way back and speculate that if the United States had not invaded Afghanistan in 2001, there would not have arisen such a strong anti-American culture in the Middle East, and instead, a new era of friendship and mutuality ushered in. Particularly if an American Government had the balls to stop pretending Israel is so righteous. And so there wouldn't have been many to influence.

But i've gone off on something of a non sequitur. We can't rewind time. We can't solve the fact that George Bush was an idiot. Just as we can't fix the fact that Obama has no balls. But i'll address your point on Obama.

I think that Obama has a lot of pressure on him to deliver. After his election campaign was run on vague words like "change", the American electorate were naive enough to take the word of a politician. To be fair, you (collectively) deserve everything you voted for. It was quite obvious that it was all just talk. I'm just going to make sure i upset everyone, for those individuals that voted Republican - and specifically claiming that Obama is a socialist, shame on you. You know it isn't true. You are blighting the name of socialism. Obama isn't a socialist, he's not even a proper Liberal. So, if there's anyone i haven't yet insulted in that post, i apologise for missing you out.

What i'll say about Obama lying is that all politicians lie. It comes with the job. You'll never get anywhere in politics if you speak out of anywhere other than from your rear. So i don't see how you can pretend this is any different from any other politicians. I don't see how you can pretend that John McCain or Hillary Clinton would have been any better. As for Sarah Palin, she's already proven her propensity for lying in her "death panels" idiocy. She is either extremely stupid or two-faced. Neither are qualities you'd want in someone in charge of the country.
But I am not pretending. I truly think he is the worst of the bunch bar none. But I now see his house of cards beginning to fall. I hope the country can survive yet another fools folly.

As for middle east friendship, I don't think most of them are capable of being anyone's true friend. I wish we could just be done with all ties in the middle east forever. That would be worth giving up cars and going back to the horse and wagon for me.
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Old September 15th, 2009, 05:29 PM   #15
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But I am not pretending. I truly think he is the worst of the bunch bar none. But I now see his house of cards beginning to fall. I hope the country can survive yet another fools folly.
What's funny is that he's just about the least radical of the Democrats and we have half the Republican bunch screaming "socialist". It would be hilarious, if it didn't damage the name of socialism.

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As for middle east friendship, I don't think most of them are capable of being anyone's true friend. I wish we could just be done with all ties in the middle east forever. That would be worth giving up cars and going back to the horse and wagon for me.
Oh, i can't be all that bothered with this subject. But i'll give it a bash.

After 9/11, there was a huge outcry from Jihadists all around the Middle East. For once, the Middle East was united in its opposition to Osama Bin Laden. For the first time in decades, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia were united in solidarity with the American People. There was an outcry. They were appalled. Many many fatwas were issued condemning the actions of Osama Bin Laden to be "evil" and a perversion of Islamic law. This was almost universal. Jihadists and ordinary Muslims alike were outraged by the terrible atrocity. Even Osama Bin Laden's own followers hinted that they would hand him over to the Americans, so that justice could be served.

What the US should have done at this point was to:

1. Seek closer ties with various nations of the Middle East.

2. Take a neutral stance on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

3. Make visits to Tehran, Damascus and Dubai.

4. Made statements about "worldwide solidarity in the face of terrible tragedy".

5. Invited diplomats from Middle Eastern nations or even suggested a state visit.

6. Finally, shut up COMPLETELY about Iranian nuclear plans.

But they didn't. The US Government decided to attack Afghanistan, full force. Despite all of this. The Muslim world was shocked, then angered. And i don't blame them. Genocide is not the answer to genocide. To make matters worse, the US then attacked Iraq with no really justifiable pretext. They slaughtered over a million people. Most of them civilians.

As i said, the past is past. We can't fix it now. That's why i'm reluctant to bother with it. It's worthless speculation. We could do "what if's" for eternity. It changes nothing.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 05:17 AM   #16
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What's funny is that he's just about the least radical of the Democrats and we have half the Republican bunch screaming "socialist". It would be hilarious, if it didn't damage the name of socialism.



Oh, i can't be all that bothered with this subject. But i'll give it a bash.

After 9/11, there was a huge outcry from Jihadists all around the Middle East. For once, the Middle East was united in its opposition to Osama Bin Laden. For the first time in decades, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia were united in solidarity with the American People. There was an outcry. They were appalled. Many many fatwas were issued condemning the actions of Osama Bin Laden to be "evil" and a perversion of Islamic law. This was almost universal. Jihadists and ordinary Muslims alike were outraged by the terrible atrocity. Even Osama Bin Laden's own followers hinted that they would hand him over to the Americans, so that justice could be served.

What the US should have done at this point was to:

1. Seek closer ties with various nations of the Middle East.

2. Take a neutral stance on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

3. Make visits to Tehran, Damascus and Dubai.

4. Made statements about "worldwide solidarity in the face of terrible tragedy".

5. Invited diplomats from Middle Eastern nations or even suggested a state visit.

6. Finally, shut up COMPLETELY about Iranian nuclear plans.

But they didn't. The US Government decided to attack Afghanistan, full force. Despite all of this. The Muslim world was shocked, then angered. And i don't blame them. Genocide is not the answer to genocide. To make matters worse, the US then attacked Iraq with no really justifiable pretext. They slaughtered over a million people. Most of them civilians.

As i said, the past is past. We can't fix it now. That's why i'm reluctant to bother with it. It's worthless speculation. We could do "what if's" for eternity. It changes nothing.

I honestly don't see how name of socialism could be damaged anymore than it was on the day it first appeared.

After 9/11 it was too late to kiss the butts of radicals in the middle east. We saw the celebrations in those countries after 9/11. The bastards were dancing in street! So I don't care how shocked the Muslim world was . As far as I am concerned they got off too easy. I guess 9/11 just looks different when it happens to you and not on the other side of the world. Maybe it should happen to more countries so they could better understand why we feel like we do.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 07:45 AM   #17
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I honestly don't see how name of socialism could be damaged anymore than it was on the day it first appeared.
The Levelers - who called themselves the "Agitators" (1647, England) - were very highly respected as fighters for democracy, freedom and equality. And against corruption, institutionalised religious intolerance. They were also supporters of "rights and liberties". They had huge public support - particularly among the lower classes - and were a large faction of Parliament.

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After 9/11 it was too late to kiss the butts of radicals in the middle east. We saw the celebrations in those countries after 9/11. The bastards were dancing in street! So I don't care how shocked the Muslim world was . As far as I am concerned they got off too easy. I guess 9/11 just looks different when it happens to you and not on the other side of the world. Maybe it should happen to more countries so they could better understand why we feel like we do.
All these ridiculous conspiracy theories make me sick. Is this "conspiracy theory day" or something? I've already seen two (albeit even more ridiculous) theories like this on this very forum.

It was a small number of Palestinian adolescents celebrating. The vast majority of the Muslim world, inside and out of Palestine, expressed unprecedented support for the American People.

I'll use Palestine as an example, since that's the country i have most information on at the moment.

9/11 was condemned by every Palestinian organisation. Fatah, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Hamas, Worker's Unions and committees, Human Rights Organisations (including AlHaq, Law, Palestine Center for Human Rights), student associations, municipalities, mosques and churches.

The US consulate in Jerusalem was swamped with faxes from Palestinians and Palestinian Organisations expressing condolences, grief and solidarity.

The Palestine Legislative Council condemned the attack and sent an urgent letter of condolences to Mr J. Dennis Hasterd, the US Speaker of the House of Representatives.

One million Palestinian students stood for a 5 minutes silence to express solidarity for the people affected by the tragedy.

I could go on.

Frankly, i think it's disgusting to condemn the Muslim world and ignore the mass movement of moral support and solidarity for the American People. True friendship is not kissing someone's arse, it is treating them as an equal, being at peace with them and being in a state of mutual solidarity.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 11:17 AM   #18
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The Levelers - who called themselves the "Agitators" (1647, England) - were very highly respected as fighters for democracy, freedom and equality. And against corruption, institutionalised religious intolerance. They were also supporters of "rights and liberties". They had huge public support - particularly among the lower classes - and were a large faction of Parliament.



All these ridiculous conspiracy theories make me sick. Is this "conspiracy theory day" or something? I've already seen two (albeit even more ridiculous) theories like this on this very forum.

It was a small number of Palestinian adolescents celebrating. The vast majority of the Muslim world, inside and out of Palestine, expressed unprecedented support for the American People.

I'll use Palestine as an example, since that's the country i have most information on at the moment.

9/11 was condemned by every Palestinian organisation. Fatah, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Hamas, Worker's Unions and committees, Human Rights Organisations (including AlHaq, Law, Palestine Center for Human Rights), student associations, municipalities, mosques and churches.

The US consulate in Jerusalem was swamped with faxes from Palestinians and Palestinian Organisations expressing condolences, grief and solidarity.

The Palestine Legislative Council condemned the attack and sent an urgent letter of condolences to Mr J. Dennis Hasterd, the US Speaker of the House of Representatives.

One million Palestinian students stood for a 5 minutes silence to express solidarity for the people affected by the tragedy.

I could go on.

Frankly, i think it's disgusting to condemn the Muslim world and ignore the mass movement of moral support and solidarity for the American People. True friendship is not kissing someone's arse, it is treating them as an equal, being at peace with them and being in a state of mutual solidarity.
We have already felt the fake "love and support" from them many times. And what I find "disgusting " is that anyone would expect us to trust them at all.

And as far as the support Israel goes we have stuck too close to them. But then the Holocaust is denied by people like Ahmadinejad . That does not give us a lot of trust as to his word.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 04:13 PM   #19
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We have already felt the fake "love and support" from them many times. And what I find "disgusting " is that anyone would expect us to trust them at all.

And as far as the support Israel goes we have stuck too close to them. But then the Holocaust is denied by people like Ahmadinejad . That does not give us a lot of trust as to his word.
Oh, so the entire Muslim community of the Middle East got together and decided, okay, now let's pretend to support the victims of this terrible tragedy? Okay, sarcasm off.

This is what generates racial hate, ethnic conflict and racist thought in general. This stupid idea of throwing an entire culture into one category and saying "right, they're all heartless bastards with no respect for freedom, rights or democracy and they all pretend to be our friends in times of terrible tragedy and sadness for us". That, brother, is racial profiling. That is disgusting. Although i'm sure you didn't mean it like that.

Ahmadinejhad is a loony. Absolute nutjob. But Israel has nukes and CLEARLY has no qualms about marching into other countries and beating the living shit out of its inhabitants.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 05:51 PM   #20
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The Scottish Government were right to release Al Megrahi.

He is a dieing man, and although some people may not like to accept this he could not have done the job alone even if he had any involvement in the first place.

In my view I would rather send the correct person to Jail than just someone we decided to blame to make people feel happy.

He is not a free man, under Scots law he has not been cleared of anything. He is still officially gulity however after his appeal he was expected to be released, but he got cancer which meant that he was never going to be able to live to see his appeal go through. Thankfully the Scottish Justice system has compassion for people who are dieing. Some people may say well he is guilty, he showed no compassion, well let me send a message to those people, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth doesn't work anymore. We instead turned the other cheek and we showed them that Scotland at the end of the day has compassion. Scotland showed that we will rise above it.

The Scots law system has compassion, the US law system does not. Maybe the US should learn from Scotland and adopt it. Keeping Megrahi locked up isn't going to bring the people that died back. It is not going to ease the pain. So lets show them that we are the better people and can show compassion where they can't.

Well done to the Scottish Government for making the correct decision, even when under pressure from the US Administration.
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