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-   -   You know what's really ironic about illegal American Immigration? (http://politicalfray.com/economics/1558-you-know-whats-really-ironic-about-illegal-american-immigration.html)

el canadiano April 28th, 2010 04:17 AM

You know what's really ironic about illegal American Immigration?
 
http://www.theatlantic.com/food/arch...ood-inc/18976/

The fact that guys like Smithfield Foods and IBP actually recruit illegal immigrants to work for them. Don't know what I'm talking about? Watch Food, Inc.

myp April 28th, 2010 01:37 PM

It's not really ironic- it makes sense. They get cheaper labor and the illegal aliens get cash-paying jobs.

el canadiano April 28th, 2010 05:26 PM

What I find ironic is that they're getting away with it unsuspected, yet (although I definitely don't blame them) many citizens want them out of the country.

myp April 28th, 2010 05:44 PM

I wouldn't say they are getting away unsuspected- I think there are a lot of people that realize. Heck, its even in documentaries as you mentioned.

Seer Travis Truman April 28th, 2010 06:29 PM

The simple Truth here is that america was founded on genocide and it is they who invaded the land. The idea that some human beings can be "illegal" is utterly insane and perverse.

That is just another part of the utterly racist policies that america facistly imposes.

myp April 28th, 2010 06:44 PM

There is another side to it and that is the money. The taxpayers end up taking the cost burden of public goods used by illegal immigrants since they don't pay income tax, etc. Legalizing everyone doesn't work either because the majority of people that would immigrate here would be those looking for better lives and likely take more from the already diminishing entitlement program funds than put in.

Furthermore, this is no "facist" American policy- every nation protects its borders and has citizen, legal, etc. statuses.

Dirk April 29th, 2010 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myp (Post 13490)
Furthermore, this is no "facist" American policy- every nation protects its borders and has citizen, legal, etc. statuses.

I don't like throwing around terms. By the way, fascism is an economic ideal, and isn't entirely applicable here. And it's not necessarily racist.

But everyone doing something doesn't make it right. We shouldn't be afraid to be rational and to do what we think is right. I hate debates on immigration, i'm not sure i should stay on this thread. I usually end up accusing people of being racist. I'm pretty touchy on the subject.

myp April 29th, 2010 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk (Post 13497)
I don't like throwing around terms. By the way, fascism is an economic ideal, and isn't entirely applicable here. And it's not necessarily racist.

But everyone doing something doesn't make it right. We shouldn't be afraid to be rational and to do what we think is right. I hate debates on immigration, i'm not sure i should stay on this thread. I usually end up accusing people of being racist. I'm pretty touchy on the subject.

I didn't see the relevance of fascism either, which is why I posted that in response to Seer. I agree though that we shouldn't be afraid to dare to be different, but my reasoning against allowing everyone to come here was the cost factor due to entitlement programs. If we can manage to privatize or abolish those (without stealing from everyone who paid in), then maybe we can talk.

Dirk April 29th, 2010 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myp (Post 13498)
I didn't see the relevance of fascism either, which is why I posted that in response to Seer. I agree though that we shouldn't be afraid to dare to be different, but my reasoning against allowing everyone to come here was the cost factor due to entitlement programs. If we can manage to privatize or abolish those (without stealing from everyone who paid in), then maybe we can talk.

What about a residency aspect of social security and such-like? Though i really want things on a really localist level. And i kind of have this idea of an opt-out system. See? Libertarian and socialist. :p

myp April 29th, 2010 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk (Post 13499)
What about a residency aspect of social security and such-like? Though i really want things on a really localist level. And i kind of have this idea of an opt-out system. See? Libertarian and socialist. :p

The real plausible opt-out system is an opt-in system. Private retirement fund managers can more than do the job ;)

Calvin April 29th, 2010 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by el canadiano (Post 13464)
http://www.theatlantic.com/food/arch...ood-inc/18976/
[FONT="Georgia"]
The fact that guys like Smithfield Foods and IBP actually recruit illegal immigrants to work for them. Don't know what I'm talking about? Watch Food, Inc.

[FONT="Georgia"]I saw that movie. It never ceases to amaze me how much power these big corporations have. The don't even need assassins to carry out their dirty work, they only need to stop donating to the Dems and GOP to kill political careers. The politicians know it, and are helpless to do anything about it.

That's why they turn a blind eye to big businesses sordid / illegal activities.

deanhills April 30th, 2010 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin (Post 13503)
I saw that movie. It never ceases to amaze me how much power these big corporations have. The don't even need assassins to carry out their dirty work, they only need to stop donating to the Dems and GOP to kill political careers. The politicians know it, and are helpless to do anything about it.

That's why they turn a blind eye to big businesses sordid / illegal activities.

Another good reason why the US political system needs an overhaul. Probably time for a mini-revolution to get rid of BIG Government and LARGE corporations. We need to get the Government, Banks, Insurance Companies back to where the people are. They are supposed to be serving the people, not the other way round.

Dirk April 30th, 2010 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deanhills (Post 13511)
Another good reason why the US political system needs an overhaul. Probably time for a mini-revolution to get rid of BIG Government and LARGE corporations. We need to get the Government, Banks, Insurance Companies back to where the people are. They are supposed to be serving the people, not the other way round.

I enjoyed this post. :)

David April 30th, 2010 07:11 PM

Mini revolution? lol

Dirk April 30th, 2010 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David (Post 13532)
Mini revolution? lol

Why restrict yourself?

myp April 30th, 2010 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deanhills (Post 13511)
Another good reason why the US political system needs an overhaul. Probably time for a mini-revolution to get rid of BIG Government and LARGE corporations. We need to get the Government, Banks, Insurance Companies back to where the people are. They are supposed to be serving the people, not the other way round.

The banks and insurance companies are not supposed to serve the people. How about we just remove the moral hazard that government has created for them? That will automatically lead to reduced leverage and less risk on their part (as well as less profits.) Of course it will mean less credit and more risk for consumers too, but perhaps that is for the best as it would mean fewer bubbles. You can't have it both ways anyway.

el canadiano May 1st, 2010 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myp (Post 13535)
The banks and insurance companies are not supposed to serve the people. How about we just remove the moral hazard that government has created for them? That will automatically lead to reduced leverage and less risk on their part (as well as less profits.) Of course it will mean less credit and more risk for consumers too, but perhaps that is for the best as it would mean fewer bubbles. You can't have it both ways anyway.

Leverage was why the American banks failed. Preventing it would prevent them from making the same mistake which screwed up the 2008 financial crisis.

Calvin May 1st, 2010 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk (Post 13514)
I enjoyed this post. :)

[FONT="Georgia"]I also enjoyed the post!

Quote:

Originally Posted by deanhills (Post 13511)
Another good reason why the US political system needs an overhaul. Probably time for a mini-revolution to get rid of BIG Government and LARGE corporations. We need to get the Government, Banks, Insurance Companies back to where the people are. They are supposed to be serving the people, not the other way round.

G[FONT="Georgia"]reat Post Dean!

I think you are absolutely correct. There is a problem when athletes make 30 plus million dollars a season. There is a problem when CEO's make hundred of millions of dollars a year. There is a problem when big banks that have been reckless can be bailed out by the taxpayer - virtually no strings attached.

The underlining problem, of course, is greed and excess. The irony is that many of those ultra wealthy individuals came from a family which at some stage had lived in poverty or had humble non-well off beginnings.

The whole system of capitalism needs to be re-evaluated in my view.

myp May 1st, 2010 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin (Post 13552)
There is a problem when athletes make 30 plus million dollars a season. There is a problem when CEO's make hundred of millions of dollars a year.

I really don't understand how people can say that. In doing so you are essentially saying there is a problem with success. The only reason that athletes make so much is because so many people pay to see their games and the only reason CEOs make so much is because so many people pay to buy the company's products and services. What happened to keeping the fruits of your labor and being able to spend money how you want?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin (Post 13552)
There is a problem when big banks that have been reckless can be bailed out by the taxpayer - virtually no strings attached.

This one I agree with because the government's responsibility is the people, not the banks. No surprise that they were bailed out though because the crisis was the result of government intervention by providing risk insurance for banks and the housing market in an attempt to be "for the people" by trying to increase house ownership, etc. It was not the result of capitalism, it was the result of utopian delusion. Government created the moral hazard, so it's no surprise they ended up paying for it when everything blew up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin (Post 13552)
The underlining problem, of course, is greed and excess. The irony is that many of those ultra wealthy individuals came from a family which at some stage had lived in poverty or had humble non-well off beginnings.

That "greed" is also what provides millions with jobs and keeps the economy going. Greed is a proponent of self-interest and when it comes to companies, their goal usually is to make money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin (Post 13552)
The whole system of capitalism needs to be re-evaluated in my view.

Why? When it wasn't even capitalism that caused most of our problems, why would you reevaluate it? What we should be reevaluating is crony capitalism as well as the idea that government should be there to provide everything for the people.

deanhills May 1st, 2010 12:49 PM

Thanks :redface:

Tonight I was listening to the UK election debates - the first one, and there was an item that really got me excited, where they were discussing how to cut the number of members of Parliament and revamp the House of Lords. Who knows, maybe that kind of thinking is also in the minds of politicians in the US. What also had me excited was the Liberal Democrat's plan to tax the profits of Banks by 10%. Nick Clegg, the candidate for the Liberal Democrats put it eloquently that in that way at least society will get back what they had put in to bail the banks out. Would be great if the US can do some of the same if they are not already doing that.

Back to the topic. Looks as though Britain also has serious issues with immigration, and all three candidates have plans to reduce immigration and also to apply immigration more effectively, i.e. use immigrants in those areas of the country where they are most needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin (Post 13552)
I also enjoyed the post!


G reat Post Dean!

I think you are absolutely correct. There is a problem when athletes make 30 plus million dollars a season. There is a problem when CEO's make hundred of millions of dollars a year. There is a problem when big banks that have been reckless can be bailed out by the taxpayer - virtually no strings attached.

The underlining problem, of course, is greed and excess. The irony is that many of those ultra wealthy individuals came from a family which at some stage had lived in poverty or had humble non-well off beginnings.

The whole system of capitalism needs to be re-evaluated in my view.



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