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Old July 29th, 2013, 09:36 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Road Warrior View Post
Please cite your sources or is "feudal/control economy" just an opinion?

Here is an example:

Ancient Roman Economy
Ancient Rome was an agrarian and slave based economy whose main concern was feeding the vast number of citizens and legionaries who populated the Mediterranean region. Agriculture and trade dominated Roman economic fortunes, only supplemented by small scale industrial production.
Perpetual expansion (war) sustained the Roman Empire's economy imho.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 09:54 AM   #22
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Perpetual expansion (war) sustained the Roman Empire's economy imho.
Before Hadrian, sure. After him it was more about mineral mining and trade. Had the Romans bothered with industry, we'd all be speaking Latin today.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 09:55 AM   #23
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Personally, I see this as one of the largest problem going forward here....there will likely come a time when a majority feel repressed by the way our financial system gives the wealthy opportunity to gain even more, while removing the same from those who lack the influence and thus the opportunity.

This has led to revolution in the past, and I can only hope it is not repeated.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #24
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Perpetual expansion (war) sustained the Roman Empire's economy imho.
There's a saying "Just because you can doesn't mean you should". The Romans had a huge army and used it instead of dismantling it. Why?

If we look at the history of the Romans, specifically with Carthage, it becomes clear why Rome would be paranoid about not letting anyone else get the upper hand on them again. In a world of kill or be killed, the Romans not only killed, but excelled at it for several centuries.

The Punic Wars
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Old July 29th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #25
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There's a saying "Just because you can doesn't mean you should". The Romans had a huge army and used it instead of dismantling it. Why?

If we look at the history of the Romans, specifically with Carthage, it becomes clear why Rome would be paranoid about not letting anyone else get the upper hand on them again. In a world of kill or be killed, the Romans not only killed, but excelled at it for several centuries.

The Punic Wars
Shame too. Hannibal's reforms would of democratized the world a few thousand years sooner had they lasted and spread.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #26
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Shame too. Hannibal's reforms would of democratized the world a few thousand years sooner had they lasted and spread.
An interesting observation since his own people drove him into exile for some of his reforms. If the Romans hadn't subjugated the Carthaginians so much, perhaps Hannibal wouldn't have had to implement unpopular reforms.

I'd much rather speculate on how the history of democracy, at least a republic, would have changed had Julius Caesar been killed in Gaul.

In the Ninth Circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno, both Brutus and Cassius are shown being tortured by Satan for their part in killing Caesar. I consider both of them heroes for attacking the dictator who destroyed the Roman Republic and installed himself as Emperor.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #27
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An interesting observation since his own people drove him into exile for some of his reforms. If the Romans hadn't subjugated the Carthaginians so much, perhaps Hannibal wouldn't have had to implement unpopular reforms.

I'd much rather speculate on how the history of democracy, at least a republic, would have changed had Julius Caesar been killed in Gaul.

In the Ninth Circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno, both Brutus and Cassius are shown being tortured by Satan for their part in killing Caesar. I consider both of them heroes for attacking the dictator who destroyed the Roman Republic and installed himself as Emperor.
He was the most democratic leader Rome had had in most of a century. Oligarchic minded aristocrats had nearly brought down the Republic by trashing the economy for their own enrichment and instigating Spartacus' slave revolt. Social and economic reforms initiated by Gaius Julius (that's the correct way of writing his name BTW, Caesar was an honorific, not his name) had turned the the Republic around, enfranchising the Gauls and Iberians with membership in the senate, enacting anti-corruption laws, improving the economy and establishing a meaningful welfare system for the Roman poor. Criminal senators jealous of his popularity and angry at their loss of power killed him and instigated the civil war that brought the Republic down. Had he lived to die a natural death, the Senate would have elected new Counsels and the Republic would have endured.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 08:01 PM   #28
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The one we are presently burdened with is "imposed". Prices are set. Monopolies and insider trading goes on. Wages are on the cusp of being set and are already many places. The cards are stacked in favor of people who do not toil for their bread.
All this because some view the middle class as expendable.

Either the middle class will cease to exist ( as we know it ) or the qualifying entry level income to the middle class will be much greater.

Either way...the middle class as we knew it will become a memory. At this point in my life I don't worry about myself but I do worry about my children and grandchildren and the middle class living that they may never enjoy.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 08:46 PM   #29
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All this because some view the middle class as expendable.

Either the middle class will cease to exist ( as we know it ) or the qualifying entry level income to the middle class will be much greater.

Either way...the middle class as we knew it will become a memory. At this point in my life I don't worry about myself but I do worry about my children and grandchildren and the middle class living that they may never enjoy.
Time for a revolution?
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Old July 30th, 2013, 10:56 PM   #30
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Time for a revolution?
We could start with overturning the Citizen United ruling and publicly funding elections.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 11:17 PM   #31
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All this because some view the middle class as expendable.

Either the middle class will cease to exist ( as we know it ) or the qualifying entry level income to the middle class will be much greater.

Either way...the middle class as we knew it will become a memory. At this point in my life I don't worry about myself but I do worry about my children and grandchildren and the middle class living that they may never enjoy.
My next door neighbors have been foreclosed on. I don't know them,, we just moved 4 miles from where we were. reason I found out is my landlord is always on the look out for a good buy to rent. He rents every one he buys too!
I don't know their story but they look decent enough and I'm pretty sure they both work. The house is only a couple years old. I figure when they bought it it was under that extremely unrealistic pricing and then maybe he got laid off and had to take a lesser paying job. ...
...we found a bevy of cottages (they have these instead of high rise apartments around here) populated with what looks like formerly middle class people. (We were out scanning for garage sales )
They seem to still have hope. God bless em.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 11:19 PM   #32
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We could start with overturning the Citizen United ruling and publicly funding elections.
Amen
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Old July 31st, 2013, 09:59 AM   #33
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He was the most democratic leader Rome had had in most of a century. Oligarchic minded aristocrats had nearly brought down the Republic by trashing the economy for their own enrichment and instigating Spartacus' slave revolt. Social and economic reforms initiated by Gaius Julius (that's the correct way of writing his name BTW, Caesar was an honorific, not his name) had turned the the Republic around, enfranchising the Gauls and Iberians with membership in the senate, enacting anti-corruption laws, improving the economy and establishing a meaningful welfare system for the Roman poor. Criminal senators jealous of his popularity and angry at their loss of power killed him and instigated the civil war that brought the Republic down. Had he lived to die a natural death, the Senate would have elected new Counsels and the Republic would have endured.
A dictatorship, no matter how benevolent, is still a dictatorship. Had Julius Caesar, as he is known in the 21st Century, not violated the law and crossed the Rubicon with his army, the first of many steps was taken to the fall of the Roman.

Caesar's Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
On 10 January 49 BC, leading one legion, the Legio XIII Gemina, General Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon River, the boundary between the Cisalpine Gaul province, to the north, and Italy proper, to the south, a legally-proscribed action forbidden to any army-leading general. The proscription protected the Roman Republic from a coup d'état; thus, Caesar's military action began a civil war.

This act of war on the Roman Republic by Caesar led to widespread approval amongst the Roman civilians, who believed him a hero. The historical records differ about which decisive comment Caesar made on crossing the Rubicon: one report is Alea iacta est (usually translated as "The die is cast").
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Old July 31st, 2013, 10:03 AM   #34
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My next door neighbors have been foreclosed on. I don't know them,, we just moved 4 miles from where we were. reason I found out is my landlord is always on the look out for a good buy to rent. He rents every one he buys too!
I don't know their story but they look decent enough and I'm pretty sure they both work. The house is only a couple years old. I figure when they bought it it was under that extremely unrealistic pricing and then maybe he got laid off and had to take a lesser paying job. ...
...we found a bevy of cottages (they have these instead of high rise apartments around here) populated with what looks like formerly middle class people. (We were out scanning for garage sales )
They seem to still have hope. God bless em.
Hope and tenacity built this great nation,it's not over but were hurting plenty!

We need to believe in ourselves again and revive the spirit of community and "concern" for our fellow neighbors,their futures and our children's futures.

We are all familiar with the quote below.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one"

Unbridled self-serving capitalism with no compassion for others will eventually destroy us.

What does compassion mean to me in regard to my fellow Americans? We need to invest in our nation by rewarding people who genuinely desire to improve their lives and take steps in that direction.

We need a higher minimum wage,if I have to pay 69 cents more for that burger so be it. I want these people to have more expendable cash so that they too can invest in America's future. Increasing the minimum wage is but a small step but it's a step in the right direction.

The Nay Sayers on the far right who oppose the increase and then complain about the increase in food stamp use are blind,they don't understand that food stamps are subsidizing the low wages they support!!! Reducing food stamps and opposing a higher minimum wage creates a "perfect storm" and the nucleolus of revolution. They will lead many into the ditch before things can truly change. It's sad to think that an entire generation will have to pay for the far-right's blind ignorance when it comes to serving the people by investing in their future and our nation's long term economic health as opposed to fleeting short term gain.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 04:08 PM   #35
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Machinery has eliminated many heavy industrial jobs, however there is still much employment concerned with small crafts, installing intricate parts and manufacturing a myriad of devices craved by Americans. Unfortunately they are manufactured elsewhere and those elsewheres do not have safety and labor regulations.
Meanwhile those who would toil in a factory are relegated to the service industry which would be O.K. if it paid adequately.
So what our "work force" has become, as I see it, is a big servant class.
I can even accept that, but not at these wages when the upper class can well afford to pay a dollar extra for a burger to insure a decent lifestyle for the masses.
Do you think the US is ready for a Guaranteed Annual Income?

"The Guaranteed Annual Income (GAI) is an alternative approach to the standard income assistance programs.

"By definition the GAI has a few different models that are housed under the concept.

"The term 'guaranteed Annual Income' commonly refers to a proposal that was discussed in Canada during the 1970s, while a more broader concept is known as the 'unconditional basic income.'".
Guaranteed Annual Income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old July 31st, 2013, 04:12 PM   #36
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A dictatorship, no matter how benevolent, is still a dictatorship. Had Julius Caesar, as he is known in the 21st Century, not violated the law and crossed the Rubicon with his army, the first of many steps was taken to the fall of the Roman.

Caesar's Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rome was already under a dictatorship under Pompey, the whole point of crossing the Rubicon was the liberation of Rome. There's a reason Gaius (people in the 21st Century are idiots by and large) was greeted with a Triumph when he marched into Rome with the 10th Legion at is back.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 06:53 AM   #37
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Rome was already under a dictatorship under Pompey, the whole point of crossing the Rubicon was the liberation of Rome. There's a reason Gaius (people in the 21st Century are idiots by and large) was greeted with a Triumph when he marched into Rome with the 10th Legion at is back.
Which explains the Roman Civil war and the centuries of death afterward.

Disagreed on the number of idiots in the 21st Century. Most are more sophisticated than in previous centuries, but still fall along the standard IQ curve.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 02:16 PM   #38
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Do you think the US is ready for a Guaranteed Annual Income?

"The Guaranteed Annual Income (GAI) is an alternative approach to the standard income assistance programs.

"By definition the GAI has a few different models that are housed under the concept.

"The term 'guaranteed Annual Income' commonly refers to a proposal that was discussed in Canada during the 1970s, while a more broader concept is known as the 'unconditional basic income.'".
Guaranteed Annual Income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think America needs a robust jobs program that puts all able bodied people back to work. The house just turned down a bill that would renovate our physical infrastructure. That would have been a good start had it passed. I never envisioned it before lately but we need something on the scale of the W.P .A. of the thirties . One reason is to prevent loss of skills. These guys laying around not using their craftsmanship; not learning something new every day by being involved in a trade, represent the wiping out of an entire generation of know-how. To me know-how soon translates to can-do. And THAT is what spurs inventiveness and entrepreneurship. How can we come up with 'the next new thing' if we aren't creatively involved at a task?
To answer your question, imo, the above would negate the need for a guaranteed annual income.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 03:42 AM   #39
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We could start with overturning the Citizen United ruling and publicly funding elections.
Not sure who would overturn it, but Congress can certainly find a legal way to render it moot if they wanted to do so. I doubt the Republicans would support such effort.

I do think the amount of money, PACs and other shenanigans going on in major elections are going to reach a tipping point. The dislike for the ruling noted in this thread is a good indicator of public disgust. This poll is another indicator:

http://www.citizen.org/documents/ban...ve-summary.pdf
Quote:
With a couple of exceptions, anywhere from 70% to 80% of all Americans support corporate
reform proposals and statements. Since 40% to 50% of all adult Americans strongly support the
reforms, people are adamant about the need for reforms geared to limit the political financial
muscle of corporate Americas. The level of intensity is especially prominent in upper middle
class households. Voters living in households with a total income between $75,000 and
$100,000 a year are more likely to strongly support reform than anyone else.

......Concern about the morality of corporate political spending is responsible for the hostility
towards the status quo. At the top end, nine of every ten (89%) adult Americans believe there’s
way too much corporate money in politics
. There’s not much downside to the negative
attitudes about corporate spending, either. Two out of every three (66%) people accept the
very strong statement that money is the root of all money in politics. Half of the adult
population actually strongly agrees with the criticism about the amount of corporate money in
politics.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 03:55 AM   #40
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I think America needs a robust jobs program that puts all able bodied people back to work. The house just turned down a bill that would renovate our physical infrastructure. That would have been a good start had it passed. I never envisioned it before lately but we need something on the scale of the W.P .A. of the thirties . One reason is to prevent loss of skills. These guys laying around not using their craftsmanship; not learning something new every day by being involved in a trade, represent the wiping out of an entire generation of know-how. To me know-how soon translates to can-do. And THAT is what spurs inventiveness and entrepreneurship. How can we come up with 'the next new thing' if we aren't creatively involved at a task?
To answer your question, imo, the above would negate the need for a guaranteed annual income.
Loss of skills is a serious problem. A couple of years ago I fully supported a WPA-style program to get our economy back up and running, but after seeing many discussions on the matter, I also have a concern about dependency on the Federal government for jobs and job management.

An alternative strategy is for the Feds to fund public works programs. It's no secret our bridges, roads and other major infrastructure are hurting. Funding programs to build, replace or repair infrastructure would have a similar effect on our economy as a WPA except that it would be using private businesses.

The skills program is a different problem. During the Apollo Space program the US attracted the world's brightest minds, engineers and other talents. A program to Mars or to build a Lunar industrial colony would be cost-prohibitive for one nation alone. An international effort would be more affordable, but also have same effect of preserving technical skills at home.
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