The Political Fray - Political Forum
Go Back   Political Fray > The Political Fray > Economics

Economics For discussion about economics, financial markets, investing, stock markets, finance, and economic theory


Thanks Tree15Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 1st, 2015, 06:19 AM   #21
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,907

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
A vast takeover of functions by machines causing significant unemployment will never happen. Just like it was predicted in the 60s that everyone would be flying around in flying cars by the 80s.

Only practical things happen - hello?!
No one has a crystal ball and this has been predicted before (with industrialization, etc.) and hasn't happened, but at the same time we have never had machines that can replicate human capacity in thinking which is what we are moving towards. We don't know for sure one way or another just yet, but it isn't a bad idea to think about it so we at least have some idea of how to handle it.
Thanks from tecoyah
myp is offline  
Old February 1st, 2015, 06:51 AM   #22
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
No one has a crystal ball and this has been predicted before (with industrialization, etc.) and hasn't happened, but at the same time we have never had machines that can replicate human capacity in thinking which is what we are moving towards. We don't know for sure one way or another just yet, but it isn't a bad idea to think about it so we at least have some idea of how to handle it.
Problem is, automation is VERY EXPENSIVE, especially smart automation, making its use very limited.

I worked in engineering at a huge GTE manufacturing plant in Alabama in the early/mid 80s that made business and residential telephones. The plant virtually made EVERYTHING that went into the phones for many years including making screws and winding coils (inductors).

The plant had A LOT of automation in the works. Problem was, pressure from competition from cheap products from China became too great causing the plant to close, not long after I moved back to FL in 1985. So all that money spent on automation was for not.
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old February 1st, 2015, 07:14 AM   #23
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,907

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
Problem is, automation is VERY EXPENSIVE, especially smart automation, making its use very limited.

I worked in engineering at a huge GTE manufacturing plant in Alabama in the early/mid 80s that made business and residential telephones. The plant virtually made EVERYTHING that went into the phones for many years including making screws and winding coils (inductors).

The plant had A LOT of automation in the works. Problem was, pressure from competition from cheap products from China became too great causing the plant to close, not long after I moved back to FL in 1985. So all that money spent on automation was for not.
It might be too expensive today, but again this is looking at trends. Remember Moore's law- the tech is getting much cheaper with each passing day. At the same time, we are seeing trends and likely to see more of a rising middle class in places like China and India, thereby making labor more expensive globally.
myp is offline  
Old February 1st, 2015, 09:15 AM   #24
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

As a process becomes increasingly automated, there is less and less labor to be saved or quality improvement to be gained. This is an example of both diminishing returns and the logistic function.

As more and more processes become automated, there are fewer remaining non-automated processes. This is an example of exhaustion of opportunities.

BTW: Our counter top ice maker in our RV automates the process, as many RV fridges do not have them. I doubt anyone wants put out of work because of it, and in fact, a few were employed!

Last edited by Aufgeblassen; February 1st, 2015 at 09:21 AM.
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old February 1st, 2015, 10:39 AM   #25
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,907

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
As a process becomes increasingly automated, there is less and less labor to be saved or quality improvement to be gained. This is an example of both diminishing returns and the logistic function.
Sure, but we aren't talking about the extinction of jobs so much as the vast majority of jobs going away. But even then, there might even be a point at which a machine is cheaper than any human - you don't have to worry about things like labor laws with a machine after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
As more and more processes become automated, there are fewer remaining non-automated processes. This is an example of exhaustion of opportunities.
Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
BTW: Our counter top ice maker in our RV automates the process, as many RV fridges do not have them. I doubt anyone wants put out of work because of it, and in fact, a few were employed!
But your RV isn't an analogy for the economy
myp is offline  
Old February 1st, 2015, 11:29 AM   #26
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
you don't have to worry about things like labor laws with a machine after all.
Unless the Democrats are in charge.
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old February 1st, 2015, 02:27 PM   #27
Secretary of State
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 4,814

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
Unless the Democrats are in charge.
This does not make sense...and is obvious partisan comment.
I think we all get it dude....the Dems suck.

Okay...perhaps it might be time we did something other than complain?
tecoyah is offline  
Old February 1st, 2015, 10:32 PM   #28
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 6,118

Aufgeblassen, is it more expensive to pay 30 McDonald's employees min wage or put a touch screen on the counter with a money collector/card reader? How about a car that drives itself rather than the $30k+/year a cab, bus and truck driver get's paid? When was the last time you saw a non-reporter on the floor of the NYSE, '99?

Eventually you get to the point where an employee that works 24/7/365 without breaks, without complaint and for free is worth the upfront cost.
David is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2015, 05:10 AM   #29
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Aufgeblassen, is it more expensive to pay 30 McDonald's employees min wage or put a touch screen on the counter with a money collector/card reader? How about a car that drives itself rather than the $30k+/year a cab, bus and truck driver get's paid? When was the last time you saw a non-reporter on the floor of the NYSE, '99?

Eventually you get to the point where an employee that works 24/7/365 without breaks, without complaint and for free is worth the upfront cost.
I've never seen anywhere near 30 employees manning the cash register at McD. It is usually 1 or 2.

Depreciation and higher insurance rate on a car that drives itself would be more than paying for a driver.

Reporter? I thought it was mostly traders.
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old January 22nd, 2016, 05:47 AM   #30
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

We ALREADY have a "basic" wage; it is called Minimum Wage.

We don't need an economy busting "sitting pretty wage", where you can be a couch potato and have no need to strive for a better life. That would be

Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old January 22nd, 2016, 04:53 PM   #31
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 6,118

Quote:
Originally Posted by reason10 View Post
So someone who sits on his fat ass all day long is paid the same as someone who works hard?

We already have that. It's called the WELFARE STATE.
This post was devoid of an actual counter argument.
Thanks from tecoyah
David is offline  
Old January 24th, 2016, 05:58 AM   #32
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

Quote:
Originally Posted by reason10 View Post
Liberals always say that. They are maybe a few IQ points above a down's syndrome individual.

Basically, you liberals want to pay everyone the same whether they do anything or not.

THAT'S ****ING STUPID.
Kindly refrain from attacking David like that. Try to be civilized OK? I don't agree with him, but attacks makes you look non-credible, and that you lost the argument.
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old January 24th, 2016, 06:06 AM   #33
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

Quote:
Originally Posted by reason10 View Post
I never attacked him.

I reiterated his argument. Then I said the argument was ****ing stupid.

If he is going to push uber liberal bullshit here, he's going to have to grow a thicker skin.
But he says he is NOT a liberal, so you need to take him at his word!!!
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old January 25th, 2016, 08:21 AM   #34
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 6,118

Quote:
Originally Posted by reason10 View Post
Charles Manson claimed he didn't order the killing of all those people. Should we have taken him at his word too?

Your ideology is not determined by what you say you are. It's determined by your words and actions.
Okay then, name a single social issue (ignoring religion) that I've been liberal on. Name an economic issue I've been liberal on. You won't be able to. Why? Because I'm a secular social conservative and socialist.

No active posters here are liberal in name or action. You trying to use the label as a boogieman just makes you look politically illiterate.
Thanks from Aufgeblassen
David is offline  
Old January 25th, 2016, 10:16 AM   #35
Secretary of State
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 4,814

I suggest you do as I have done and accept his opinions for what they are...pointless.
Thanks from Aufgeblassen
tecoyah is offline  
Old January 26th, 2016, 05:38 AM   #36
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

The road to Hell is paved with their "good intentions".

They simply don't think things through, and consider the unintended consequences.
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old January 26th, 2016, 07:54 AM   #37
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 6,118

Quote:
Originally Posted by reason10 View Post
First of all, (and at times I don't know where to begin) the phrase secular social conservative is oxymoronic as hell. That's like saying a Christian Jew, or a peaceful pork chop eating Muslim. Idiotic.

Secondly, since the Port Huron Statement of the early Sixties, liberalism has morphed from the free market libertarianism of Ayn Rand and Ludwig Von Mises to the Communist Manifesto of Karl Marx.

The difference between socialism and communism is how the two philosophies are implemented. Socialism takes many generations. Communists shoot their way into power. Other than that, they are identical.

Bottom line, both socialism and liberalism are anti-capitalist and almost mirror images.

Bernie Sanders is a liberal. His liberal agenda is famous.
I love how you keep dodging questions with non-answers as if nobody notices. So I'll ask again, name a liberal position I've taken on social and economic issues. Go on, just 1. That shouldn't be so hard if I'm a libral.
Thanks from Aufgeblassen
David is offline  
Old January 26th, 2016, 10:26 AM   #38
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

Quote:
Originally Posted by reason10 View Post
Asked and answered.

You said SOCIALIST.

That makes you Hillary and Barak.
I am no expert, but "progressive" does not equal socialist!
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old January 26th, 2016, 11:34 AM   #39
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 6,118

Quote:
Originally Posted by reason10 View Post
Asked and answered.

You said SOCIALIST.

That makes you Hillary and Barak.
Still doging questions. Go on, just 1 example.
David is offline  
Old January 26th, 2016, 12:54 PM   #40
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,622

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Still doging questions. Go on, just 1 example.
I'm in the same boat as you regarding his baseless charges!
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Reply

  Political Fray > The Political Fray > Economics

Tags
basic , wage



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Should a minimum wage hike happen? andrew320 Economics 21 June 7th, 2013 01:28 AM
Reduce the trade deficit; increase GDP & median wage Supposn Economics 81 February 13th, 2013 02:26 PM
Minimum wage’s affect upon median wage. Supposn Economics 13 September 10th, 2012 01:49 PM
Minimum wage. Supposn Economics 27 July 1st, 2011 06:30 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2009-2013 Political Fray. All rights reserved.