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Old December 6th, 2015, 01:39 PM   #1
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Finland debates a UBI law. Passage almost certain.

To combat the decreased consumer spending resulting from a steady rise in unemployment, the Finish government has proposed a Universal Basic Income (UBI). If the law passes, welfare recipients will receive a monthly tax free paycheck of 550 Euros starting in fiscal year 2016. This would only be a phasing in process with the Finnish welfare state eventually being completely dismantled and all citizens receiving a paycheck of 800 Euros. It's expected that the combination of Finland's high tax rate and the elimination of the welfare state will pay for the UBI.

Finland's plan to give everyone free money - Tech Insider
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Old December 6th, 2015, 02:08 PM   #2
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Socialism is such a wonderful thing.
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Old December 6th, 2015, 02:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
Socialism is such a wonderful thing.
As I keep saying. This is going to have to be the norm in the coming years or people are going to starve (then riot). Automation, for all its good, is a bitch to the working person.
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Old December 6th, 2015, 03:16 PM   #4
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How will the welfare state be eliminated, and how will that phantom thing pay for it???!!!

Sounds like a con job to me.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 06:24 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by reason10 View Post
In other words, Finland is about to become GREECE.
Because the tangled red tape of the welfare state and the payroll for the related bureaucrats is cheap? This is far more efficient, just write a check and be done with it.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 06:26 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by David View Post
Because the tangled red tape of the welfare state and the payroll for the related bureaucrats is cheap? This is far more efficient, just write a check and be done with it.
But it is unsustainable.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 10:51 AM   #7
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Sounds like runaway inflation is in their future; like the Weimar Republic.

My grandparents remember needing a wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread!
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Old December 7th, 2015, 12:06 PM   #8
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Greece thought the same thing.

The welfare state is the welfare state, even if you try to put another name on it.

To put an AYN RANDIAN spin on it, Finland is trying to spend more than it produces.
It really isn't though. It's the same their spending now minus the payroll for the bureaucracy and the money that gets lost (even without corruption) in the never ending fiscal tug of between agencies. It's not as if they're heading out $10k checks every month.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 12:14 PM   #9
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Too many dollars chasing too few goods.
That's what happens when gov't prints TOO much money!
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Old January 18th, 2016, 09:57 AM   #10
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Nope! Such a buffoon law is not happening.

Woohoo! for some common sense!

Income is to be EARNED not just GIVEN - hello?!

ADULTS should NOT need nannies!!!

Even in Finland, universal basic income is too good to be true | Declan Gaffney | Opinion | The Guardian

Last edited by Aufgeblassen; January 18th, 2016 at 10:07 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 10:12 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
Nope! Such a buffoon law is not happening.

Woohoo! for some common sense!

Income is to be EARNED not just GIVEN - hello?!

ADULTS should NOT need nannies!!!

Even in Finland, universal basic income is too good to be true | Declan Gaffney | Opinion | The Guardian
Did you even read the article or stop at the headline? The Finland proposal is still in the works. The article simply debunked extractions and it was PRO-UBI, it simply questioned the feasibility of an unconditional and universal payout. Do make sure your sources actually agree with you next time.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 10:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Did you even read the article or stop at the headline? The Finland proposal is still in the works. The article simply debunked extractions and it was PRO-UBI, it simply questioned the feasibility of an unconditional and universal payout. Do make sure your sources actually agree with you next time.
My point is that I question questioned the feasibility of an unconditional and universal payout too.

No comment on actually having to earn an income? Why should there be handouts?

Why should a lazy person be allowed to be a couch potato?

Last edited by Aufgeblassen; January 18th, 2016 at 11:04 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 11:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
My point is that I question questioned the feasibility of an unconditional and universal payout too.

No comment on actually having to earn an income? Why should there be handouts?

Why should a lazy person be allowed to be a couch potato?
1. This is replacing the welfare state, it's actually cheaper. 2. You can't live on $800/month. At least not in Finland. Being a couch potato isn't really an option but this would allow a person to take any job they could without having to worry about bills. That's the issue. Skilled labor doesn't have the jobs anymore and so are forced into unemployment and welfare (not much point working if you're still not able to pay the bills). The issue raised was that it'd be hard to work out for EVERYONE to get money but the article pointed out that was an exaggeration.

As I said, the article completely disagreed with you. You should read beyond the headlines next time.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 12:57 PM   #14
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The old adage "there is no such thing as a free lunch" really is true.
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Old January 19th, 2016, 10:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
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The old adage "there is no such thing as a free lunch" really is true.
Nobody ever said otherwise.
Thanks from tecoyah
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Old January 19th, 2016, 11:02 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by David View Post
Nobody ever said otherwise.
Giving people free/undeserved money is the same as free lunch.

Paying anything higher than the FREE MARKET calls for is a HANDOUT.

Last edited by Aufgeblassen; January 19th, 2016 at 11:09 AM.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 06:17 AM   #17
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Because the tangled red tape of the welfare state and the payroll for the related bureaucrats is cheap? This is far more efficient, just write a check and be done with it.
In grad school I remember discussing socialized medicine with a peer. She stated how great other countries are that have it because they get FREE healthcare for anything that ails them. I was gobsmacked that anyone , a grad student even, would believe that anything is "free".

Your mention of "write a check and be done with it", reminds me of that grad student.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 10:08 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
Giving people free/undeserved money is the same as free lunch.

Paying anything higher than the FREE MARKET calls for is a HANDOUT.
Except nobody said that. They just want to get rid of a bloated welfare state by killing the bureaucracy and simply writing a check every month. Do you actually read or just spew random opinions with no regard to their relevance to a given topic?
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Old January 21st, 2016, 10:11 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
In grad school I remember discussing socialized medicine with a peer. She stated how great other countries are that have it because they get FREE healthcare for anything that ails them. I was gobsmacked that anyone , a grad student even, would believe that anything is "free".

Your mention of "write a check and be done with it", reminds me of that grad student.
So paying thousands of people to file paperwork, talk to people on the phone, go threw mountains of paperwork to make sure poor people are actually poor all to write and mail out a check is better than just writing and mailing out a check and have a few dozen IT guys make sure the computers don't break down? You're not really thinking this thru. That or you're overthinking and making this out to be a more complicated thing than it really is.
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