The Political Fray - Political Forum
Go Back   Political Fray > The Political Fray > Government and Politics

Government and Politics Government and Politics Forum including laws, elections, government structure, and political theory


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 13th, 2012, 10:18 AM   #1
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,841

Right to work

Michigan recently became the 24th? state to pass a "right to work" law which makes mandatory union membership illegal. I think it is a great move towards a freer labor market. Some think it undercuts unions too much, but I don't see how forced membership is a good thing for the workers who this is about at the end of the day.

Thoughts?
myp is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #2
Intern
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 22

i wish we would go further and Ban Union Thiggery altogethar
elvisroy0000 is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 01:53 PM   #3
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,841

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvisroy0000 View Post
i wish we would go further and Ban Union Thiggery altogethar
Unions are not "thuggery". Do you want to ban corporations too?
myp is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 02:44 PM   #4
Secretary of State
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 3,456

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
Unions are not "thuggery". Do you want to ban corporations too?
I commend you on the ability to transalate what he posted.

Unions were a major player in the middle class we now see. It may very well be the unions have outlived what they stand for....we shall see. But, there seems to be nothing in place to replace the function for average folk....the working class will be damaged.
tecoyah is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #5
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,485

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
Thoughts?
I live in Florida. Florida is a right to work state. Even the conservatives grumble (I work with 1 that actually thinks we should unionize just to spite the system). It's not right to work, it's right to fire for any or no reason.
David is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #6
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,841

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I live in Florida. Florida is a right to work state. Even the conservatives grumble (I work with 1 that actually thinks we should unionize just to spite the system). It's not right to work, it's right to fire for any or no reason.
How is not being forced to join a union a reason to be fired? If someone doesn't want union dues and union protection, should it not be their choice?
myp is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #7
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,485

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
How is not being forced to join a union a reason to be fired? If someone doesn't want union dues and union protection, should it not be their choice?
That's the spin, in reality unions and labor rights laws lose their teeth. I happen to work for a company that hates to fire and refuses to even consider layoffs but I've known people to just be cut loose because their boss didn't like them or in retaliation for something because Right to 'Work' basically meant there was no such thing as unlawful termination (unless discriminatory). Maybe this law, being passed in a heavily unionized state, didn't gut labor rights. I haven't read the law and so don't know but that's how it is in Florida.
David is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #8
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,841

This undercuts unions. No denying it. But I think it does in a way that is good. Unions thrive on numbers, but I firmly believe that those numbers should be voluntary, not forced on a condition of employment. If the union isn't appealing enough to get enough workers to join it, then maybe the union needs to change its structure or doesn't need to exist. It is there to protect the workers, not to protect itself and if the workers don't see the need for it- then that's that.
myp is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #9
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,485

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
This undercuts unions. No denying it. But I think it does in a way that is good. Unions thrive on numbers, but I firmly believe that those numbers should be voluntary, not forced on a condition of employment. If the union isn't appealing enough to get enough workers to join it, then maybe the union needs to change its structure or doesn't need to exist. It is there to protect the workers, not to protect itself and if the workers don't see the need for it- then that's that.
And if that's all it does, I've no issue. But I've not read the law and going by Florida's Right to Work, this isn't a good thing.
David is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 05:36 PM   #10
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,841

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
And if that's all it does, I've no issue. But I've not read the law and going by Florida's Right to Work, this isn't a good thing.
What does Florida's law have that I didn't mention?

And I haven't read either law either
myp is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #11
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,485

[QUOTE=myp;34455]What does Florida's law have that I didn't mention?/QUOTE]

I'm just saying what my experiences are. Having not read the law, I only have Florida's equivalent to base my opinion on.
David is offline  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #12
Representative
 
=Zoomer='s Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 174

I live in a right to be fired state as well. Although wages have historically been low here anyway, across the country the average worker wage is 4k less/yr in rtw states. Unions STILL have influence on non-union wages. The less influence unions have (strength = unity + financial support) the lower EVERYONE'S wages will be.
=Zoomer= is offline  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:40 PM   #13
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,841

Quote:
Originally Posted by =Zoomer= View Post
I live in a right to be fired state as well. Although wages have historically been low here anyway, across the country the average worker wage is 4k less/yr in rtw states. Unions STILL have influence on non-union wages. The less influence unions have (strength = unity + financial support) the lower EVERYONE'S wages will be.
I am not sure of that conclusion. That has been a long-time union talking point, but I have seen studies that debunk that in reference to particular unions. Do you have any scientific literature on the matter, I'd be interested in seeing any studies that come to the opposite conclusion.

The 4k number alone means nothing as it is just correlation. Obviously a lot more variables at play there (one that jumps out in my mind is that conservative states tend to be more rural, etc. and have lower wages (and costs) generally as well as are probably rtw, whereas metropolitan areas will obviously have higher pay but also higher costs)
myp is offline  
Old December 20th, 2012, 12:07 PM   #14
Intern
 
andrew320's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 30

Although I completely support the right to associate and form a union, I do oppose forced union membership. It's surprising that so many people would oppose right-to-work. If I want to work for a company but not belong to a union, why should I be forced to?

Also, why are unions afraid of it? If they believe their union is the greatest and helps all of mankind then they would allow volunteerism as opposed to coercion.
andrew320 is offline  
Old December 26th, 2012, 10:37 PM   #15
Senator
 
Protectionist's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2012
From: Florida
Posts: 677

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
And if that's all it does, I've no issue. But I've not read the law and going by Florida's Right to Work, this isn't a good thing.
I agree. I live in Florida too. Workers are tossed out of jobs on the flimsiest of reasons. One could fill a book on how many ways (many unjust) workers lose jobs here.

It's quite common (especially in these bad economic times) to see people fired just to make room for some bosses' friend or relative, who wants that job.
It's a disgrace. No matter what the worst abuses unions may be guilty of, they're a drop in the bucket compared to the abuses of companies in "right to work" states (the biggest misnomer ever invented)
Protectionist is offline  
Old December 26th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #16
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

I live in a right to work state, I am a member of a union, they provide what unions should by my estimate. Protection from lawsuits.

I personally like the right to fire, if you suck you should get fired. You should not be forced into a union, you didn't get protection from being fired and if in the middle of the day I just wasn't to say screw you I quit, I should.

The reason some of the schools are so poorly operated is because the sorry lame and worthless employees are not able to be fired.

I run a business, ass side work, I have no employees, aside from my 14 year old. But of I did and they stopped working and forced my family into the streets, I like to know I could just can them and get employees that aren't greedy. .
clax is offline  
Old December 27th, 2012, 06:56 AM   #17
Secretary of State
 
chris7375's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2012
From: Stuart
Posts: 740

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
Michigan recently became the 24th? state to pass a "right to work" law which makes mandatory union membership illegal. I think it is a great move towards a freer labor market. Some think it undercuts unions too much, but I don't see how forced membership is a good thing for the workers who this is about at the end of the day.

Thoughts?
I myself have worked both Union and Non-Union jobs throughout my life. Seeing how both work and how the pay is truly tipped in the Unions favor.

I think Unions have become to greedy in this country and are part of the reason business has been driven to foreign countries. They have inflated their wages to the point of making the U.S. more or less shunned for employment in Manufacturing.

I worked in Healthcare for 18 years. I worked in the Suply end of the Hospital. The first hospital I worked at was Union and I was paid well above average. Though it was difficult to get promoted even if you were more qualified then someone else. Seniority ruled not ones qualifications.

Now I just left a non-union hospital where I started out low and worked my way up based on qualifications. Though the pay scale was tilted in favor of the union benefits were better at the non-union hospital they offered more. So I prefer non-union hospitals.

Unions were good at one time but they have become greedy in their endeavors and are part of the reason business has left the U.S..

Then I think our tax dollars pay Union salaries that are over inflated because the Union deems it that way. I find that appalling and unfair. When the average Secretary salary is 72 thousand dollars a year when in reality it maybe worth 35 at most.

So I for one am glad Michigan did this.
chris7375 is offline  
Old December 27th, 2012, 07:07 AM   #18
Secretary of State
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 3,456

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris7375 View Post
I myself have worked both Union and Non-Union jobs throughout my life. Seeing how both work and how the pay is truly tipped in the Unions favor.

I think Unions have become to greedy in this country and are part of the reason business has been driven to foreign countries. They have inflated their wages to the point of making the U.S. more or less shunned for employment in Manufacturing.

I worked in Healthcare for 18 years. I worked in the Suply end of the Hospital. The first hospital I worked at was Union and I was paid well above average. Though it was difficult to get promoted even if you were more qualified then someone else. Seniority ruled not ones qualifications.

Now I just left a non-union hospital where I started out low and worked my way up based on qualifications. Though the pay scale was tilted in favor of the union benefits were better at the non-union hospital they offered more. So I prefer non-union hospitals.

Unions were good at one time but they have become greedy in their endeavors and are part of the reason business has left the U.S..

Then I think our tax dollars pay Union salaries that are over inflated because the Union deems it that way. I find that appalling and unfair. When the average Secretary salary is 72 thousand dollars a year when in reality it maybe worth 35 at most.

So I for one am glad Michigan did this.
I have had both union, and non-union staffs. I treated my union staff with more active respect than the later...because I had too.

Hmm....I suppose its a matter of perspective.
tecoyah is offline  
Old December 27th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #19
myp
Founding Father
 
myp's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: us
Posts: 5,841

tecoyah, chris, I don't think it is a black and white matter like that. Some unions do good, others don't. It is the same as it is with corporations.
myp is offline  
Old December 27th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #20
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
tecoyah, chris, I don't think it is a black and white matter like that. Some unions do good, others don't. It is the same as it is with corporations.
(Behold, the earth stood still)

I agree completely with you myp.

clax is offline  
Reply

  Political Fray > The Political Fray > Government and Politics

Tags
work



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
East coast earthquake interrupted the president's work Patrick Government and Politics 4 August 24th, 2011 10:19 AM
Obama cancels trip to Indonesia to work on Health Care Reform Bill deanhills Government and Politics 12 March 20th, 2010 08:05 AM
Banning Guns- it does not work myp Government and Politics 19 June 26th, 2009 09:28 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2009-2013 Political Fray. All rights reserved.