The Political Fray - Political Forum
Go Back   Political Fray > The Political Fray > Government and Politics

Government and Politics Government and Politics Forum including laws, elections, government structure, and political theory


Thanks Tree5Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 6th, 2013, 01:37 AM   #1
Intern
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 1

Who's right, Democrats or Republicans?

By Mike Zaman






Who's right, Democrats or Republicans? Tell me your thoughts
Mike Zaman is offline  
Old October 6th, 2013, 10:11 AM   #2
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,661

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
I can tell you who is wrong; those unwilling to compromise. Right now, the biggest uncompromiser is Obama.
Why would he? Everyone except the TP agree with his position. What sane person would change their position while enjoying near universal support? The Republican Party is imploding as we speak because of the idiots in the TP. And now that fool Cruz wants to not raise the debt ceiling? If things don't change the US won't exist by New Years having experienced a Soviet style collapse.
Thanks from tecoyah
David is offline  
Old October 6th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #3
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,661

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
Obamacare has universal rejection, not support!
Irrelevant. Obamacare is law, not a bill and is funded independently. This shutdown over Obamacare is utterly pointless. THAT'S why Obama and the Dems are in such a good position, the Dems and independents are mostly for Obamacare and everyone else sees Obamacare as it's own issue and irrelevant to the funding and debt ceiling debates. As I said, nobody on the Dem side has any reason to 'negotiate'.
David is offline  
Old October 6th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #4
Representative
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Miami
Posts: 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Irrelevant. Obamacare is law, not a bill and is funded independently. This shutdown over Obamacare is utterly pointless. THAT'S why Obama and the Dems are in such a good position, the Dems and independents are mostly for Obamacare and everyone else sees Obamacare as it's own issue and irrelevant to the funding and debt ceiling debates. As I said, nobody on the Dem side has any reason to 'negotiate'.
Honestly, while I do think it's stupid that the republican party has been wasting time trying to get rid of the law using this context with the federal government shutdown, Obama and his democrat colleagues are stuck on this false choice dilemma thinking they can't propose something that they CAN compromise on, even if it's not the ACA.

So Republicans certainly deserve blame for doing something pointless, yet the democrats have done nothing to try and direct that pointlessness into something productive. I see no reason they can't say no to the ACA changes but at least offer to work on something that has less party division instilled in it. Even if ultimately the effort were to be rejected still.

With people having different ideas about how the country should be run... compromise has to come from somewhere...
Kyuubi is offline  
Old October 6th, 2013, 01:03 PM   #5
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,661

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
Honestly, while I do think it's stupid that the republican party has been wasting time trying to get rid of the law using this context with the federal government shutdown, Obama and his democrat colleagues are stuck on this false choice dilemma thinking they can't propose something that they CAN compromise on, even if it's not the ACA.

So Republicans certainly deserve blame for doing something pointless, yet the democrats have done nothing to try and direct that pointlessness into something productive. I see no reason they can't say no to the ACA changes but at least offer to work on something that has less party division instilled in it. Even if ultimately the effort were to be rejected still.

With people having different ideas about how the country should be run... compromise has to come from somewhere...
But that's the thing, the Dems HAVE agreed to negotiate once the gov't is funded (and the Senate invited the House to negotiate 74 times before the shutdown). It's the Repubs that are being simpleminded and putting the vary existence of the US at risk.
David is offline  
Old October 6th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #6
Retired
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 3,775

Would not a Democrat submission to this, be akin to paying off a blackmailer and thus making it clear such tactics work?
tecoyah is offline  
Old October 6th, 2013, 05:10 PM   #7
Representative
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Miami
Posts: 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
Would not a Democrat submission to this, be akin to paying off a blackmailer and thus making it clear such tactics work?
Would it not makes sense from a strategic standpoint for the democrats to demonstrate that while they can't agree on the ACA they'd be willing to work out a compromise on something else - like a long term solution to the debt ceiling issue - in order to pass a new budget?

I don't understand why this matter of "compromise" is viewed on the democratic side as such a false choice dilemma. Such a proposal might ultimately be symbolic, and a failure perhaps if the ACA is that much interest yo republicans, but it would relieve the blame on them, which I think would be beneficial considering they've been heavily partisan during this presidency on the voting patterns.
Kyuubi is offline  
Old October 6th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #8
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,661

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
Would it not makes sense from a strategic standpoint for the democrats to demonstrate that while they can't agree on the ACA they'd be willing to work out a compromise on something else - like a long term solution to the debt ceiling issue - in order to pass a new budget?

I don't understand why this matter of "compromise" is viewed on the democratic side as such a false choice dilemma. Such a proposal might ultimately be symbolic, and a failure perhaps if the ACA is that much interest yo republicans, but it would relieve the blame on them, which I think would be beneficial considering they've been heavily partisan during this presidency on the voting patterns.
What blame? Even the Repubs are saying this is a stupid move, the TP is the only side here that's actually holding tings up and is the only side getting any blame. That might change as we approach the debt ceiling deadline but until then the Dems have NO reason to back down.
David is offline  
Old October 6th, 2013, 09:25 PM   #9
Governor
 
Polydectes's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2013
From: just past the moons of Jupiter
Posts: 1,172

Neither, they both normally represent the opposing positions on things that don't matter and only agree in places were the people get screwed over.
Polydectes is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #10
Representative
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Miami
Posts: 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
What blame? Even the Repubs are saying this is a stupid move, the TP is the only side here that's actually holding tings up and is the only side getting any blame. That might change as we approach the debt ceiling deadline but until then the Dems have NO reason to back down.
They're getting blame because they aren't trying to propose anything to end the deadlock besides not negotiating... I understand they feel like the country's being taken hostage, over the ACA but they have other problems and they know it. Obama's open to changes to the ACA after the sutdown and debt are resolved... fine, but he has to deal the best he can with the current situation, and part of doing so is providing an added assurance to the public that he's not simply refusing to change the ACA at all over the debt, but willing to seek compromise elsewhere to leverage the changes. The republicans will get whatever blame they get but he always has opportunity to decrease it for his party.
Kyuubi is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 06:07 AM   #11
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,661

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
They're getting blame because they aren't trying to propose anything to end the deadlock besides not negotiating... I understand they feel like the country's being taken hostage, over the ACA but they have other problems and they know it. Obama's open to changes to the ACA after the sutdown and debt are resolved... fine, but he has to deal the best he can with the current situation, and part of doing so is providing an added assurance to the public that he's not simply refusing to change the ACA at all over the debt, but willing to seek compromise elsewhere to leverage the changes. The republicans will get whatever blame they get but he always has opportunity to decrease it for his party.
90% of the potentially vote changing blame (the only kinds that matter to elected officials) they're getting is coming from the TP which would never have voted for them anyway. So again, until there ability to win elections is at risk the Dems just don't have any reason to back down. Despite the false outrage some politicians have displayed, politics IS a game.
David is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 06:11 AM   #12
Retired
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 3,775

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
They're getting blame because they aren't trying to propose anything to end the deadlock besides not negotiating... I understand they feel like the country's being taken hostage, over the ACA but they have other problems and they know it. Obama's open to changes to the ACA after the sutdown and debt are resolved... fine, but he has to deal the best he can with the current situation, and part of doing so is providing an added assurance to the public that he's not simply refusing to change the ACA at all over the debt, but willing to seek compromise elsewhere to leverage the changes. The republicans will get whatever blame they get but he always has opportunity to decrease it for his party.
Excellent point here....many Americans support the ACA, and even more simply want to see what it turns out to be. Republican Tea Party folks are NOT America, they are simply a part of it, and thus do not have the right to decide what the rest of the country gets. Yet, here they are damaging the entire country because they think they speak for the whole damn thing.

This is really starting to piss me off, and any pleasant impression I once had for these people.....has turned from Patriot to Pathetic.
tecoyah is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 06:53 AM   #13
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,661

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
Ummm... a poll from two days ago still says the majority are for repeal.

A 54-percent majority of voters would like to see all or part of the health care law repealed. Thatís down from 58 percent who felt that way in June, and a high of 61 percent in January 2011. The current 54 percent supporting repeal of at least some of the law matches a low recorded twice before in October 2012 and October 2010.
But call it he ACA and those numbers suddenly go the other way. lol
Thanks from tecoyah
David is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 07:07 AM   #14
Retired
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 3,775

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
Ummm... a poll from two days ago still says the majority are for repeal.

A 54-percent majority of voters would like to see all or part of the health care law repealed. Thatís down from 58 percent who felt that way in June, and a high of 61 percent in January 2011. The current 54 percent supporting repeal of at least some of the law matches a low recorded twice before in October 2012 and October 2010.
"
A recent CNBC poll found more Americans oppose ObamaCare than oppose the Affordable Care Act. But more Americans support ObamaCare than the Affordable Care Act.
Confused?
That would be understandable given that these are two names for the same law. CNBC polled two different groups, using "ObamaCare" for one and "Affordable Care Act" for the other. Forty-six percent of the group asked about "ObamaCare" opposed it. But only 37% of those asked about the health law opposed it.
Conversely, ObamaCare had higher support than the law. As CNBC put it, Obama's name "raises the positives and the negatives."
As a rational matter, this is nuts. An informed person should have the same opinions ó positive or negative ó about a piece of legislation regardless of what it's called. But because politics is so often driven by our attitudes toward specific personalities, for many Americans, their attitudes toward a monumentally significant piece of legislation are driven by something as petty as whether "Obama" is in the title.
But it's worse than that. The same poll found that 30% of respondents didn't know what the Affordable Care Act is ó while "only" 12% didn't know what ObamaCare is.
This after years of relentless debate, and both a midterm and presidential election in which ObamaCare was one of the central issues."
Jonah Goldberg: ObamaCare vs. Affordable Care Act

....Just Sayin'
tecoyah is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #15
Governor
 
arcturus88's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: NC
Posts: 1,800

Obamacare was pushed down the the American's throats by elitists who know better what the masses need than the masses themselves. that's called socialism son.

That said, the Republicans are fighting a losing battle here. The American public needs to see this healthcare system play out and succeed or fail on its own without contribution from republicans. Any compromise or ammending with republicans will only allow the democrats to point the finger when it fails.

if it fails untouched by republicans, the democrats will ultimately have to own the failure.

We as a country have gotten rich and fat and spoiled. We have had so much for so long we forgot what it feels like to lose anything (including freedom) We may need to experience the sting of socialism just to appreciate why our forefathers fought.
arcturus88 is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 07:27 PM   #16
Representative
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Miami
Posts: 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
Excellent point here....many Americans support the ACA, and even more simply want to see what it turns out to be. Republican Tea Party folks are NOT America, they are simply a part of it, and thus do not have the right to decide what the rest of the country gets. Yet, here they are damaging the entire country because they think they speak for the whole damn thing.
I still think the tea party had its place in the party considering the first two years of Obama's run as POTUS was a partisan hack job... he really didn't bring anything new to the table on governance like he promised vat length, but.... this split it's causing is a problem., and they aren't appreciating this as a diminishing returns battle. I think their ideas make reasonable sense but the execution... not so much, particularly now with their methods fracturing the republican party.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
This is really starting to piss me off, and any pleasant impression I once had for these people.....has turned from Patriot to Pathetic.
Whatever you you might think of conservatives in general I'm not keen on having the democrats hold a political monopoly... They got a tad power hungry when they had the near super majority. But then, I've had a low opinion of the two parties since Bush got out of office... The current state of affairs makes Bush and Clinton look real good by comparison.
Thanks from Polydectes
Kyuubi is offline  
Old October 8th, 2013, 03:50 AM   #17
Governor
 
Polydectes's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2013
From: just past the moons of Jupiter
Posts: 1,172

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
Obamacare was pushed down the the American's throats by elitists who know better what the masses need than the masses themselves. that's called socialism son.

That said, the Republicans are fighting a losing battle here. The American public needs to see this healthcare system play out and succeed or fail on its own without contribution from republicans. Any compromise or ammending with republicans will only allow the democrats to point the finger when it fails.

if it fails untouched by republicans, the democrats will ultimately have to own the failure.

We as a country have gotten rich and fat and spoiled. We have had so much for so long we forgot what it feels like to lose anything (including freedom) We may need to experience the sting of socialism just to appreciate why our forefathers fought.
Sad as it is it's true. But i think the government had been usurped by the servants. How dare that shut our government down.

It's both parties at fault. neither one will compromise.
Thanks from David
Polydectes is offline  
Old October 15th, 2013, 05:56 AM   #18
Analyst
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Midwest
Posts: 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Why would he? Everyone except the TP agree with his position. What sane person would change their position while enjoying near universal support? The Republican Party is imploding as we speak because of the idiots in the TP. And now that fool Cruz wants to not raise the debt ceiling? If things don't change the US won't exist by New Years having experienced a Soviet style collapse.
John Boehner is not a tea partier. This impasse would have occurred even if the tea party had never existed. The PPACA is the most partisan piece of legislation in my lifetime. It was jammed down our throats entirely by the Democrats, it didn't receive one GOP vote, not one. The only reason the Dems got enough votes for it was because Obama lied about publically funded abortion to Bart Stupak. It's a horrible law that combines the worst of private sector and public sector and the GOP has been collecting a lot of money from their donors in order to overturn and/or defund the PPACA.

The GOP had no choice but to do what they've done because if they hadn't done this what message does that send to their donors? It says that the GOP leadership is going to take their money but not do anything with it. If that had happened not only do the donations go down but the GOP loses the ability in future campaigns to use the PPACA as the clear partisan wedge issue it is. They had no choice but to do this with or without the tea party faction in their Party.

I think it's unfair to focus on Obama because that lets Harry Reid off the hook and he is also someone who is not willing to compromise.
William is offline  
Old October 15th, 2013, 07:49 AM   #19
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,661

Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post
John Boehner is not a tea partier. This impasse would have occurred even if the tea party had never existed. The PPACA is the most partisan piece of legislation in my lifetime. It was jammed down our throats entirely by the Democrats, it didn't receive one GOP vote, not one. The only reason the Dems got enough votes for it was because Obama lied about publically funded abortion to Bart Stupak. It's a horrible law that combines the worst of private sector and public sector and the GOP has been collecting a lot of money from their donors in order to overturn and/or defund the PPACA.

The GOP had no choice but to do what they've done because if they hadn't done this what message does that send to their donors? It says that the GOP leadership is going to take their money but not do anything with it. If that had happened not only do the donations go down but the GOP loses the ability in future campaigns to use the PPACA as the clear partisan wedge issue it is. They had no choice but to do this with or without the tea party faction in their Party.

I think it's unfair to focus on Obama because that lets Harry Reid off the hook and he is also someone who is not willing to compromise.
The Speaker isn't a TPer and that's the rub. The TP is a minority and so can't depose him but they can scare the moderates with a primary threat and get the votes they need. So the Speaker tows the party line despite publicly stating the ACA debate ended with Obama's reelection. If the TP didn't exist this wouldn't have been an issue.
David is offline  
Old October 15th, 2013, 08:51 AM   #20
Analyst
 
Joined: Oct 2013
From: Midwest
Posts: 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
The Speaker isn't a TPer and that's the rub. The TP is a minority and so can't depose him but they can scare the moderates with a primary threat and get the votes they need. So the Speaker tows the party line despite publicly stating the ACA debate ended with Obama's reelection. If the TP didn't exist this wouldn't have been an issue.
This ignores the point I made which is that the non-TP GOP'ers have very good reasons of their own to do what they're doing. This would have happened even if the TP didn't exist.
William is offline  
Reply

  Political Fray > The Political Fray > Government and Politics

Tags
democrats , republicans



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Democrats revealing the Assault Weapons Ban today. chris7375 Government and Politics 183 February 11th, 2013 06:44 PM
Who Benefits from Obamacare? Democrats, Republicans & the Corporations. vvvpr Government and Politics 42 July 31st, 2012 03:57 AM
Democrats Hypocrisy EdwardGeorge Current Events 0 January 11th, 2011 09:36 PM
Rasmussen: 53% trust Republicans on health care, 37% trust Democrats myp Current Events 6 April 6th, 2010 02:17 AM
Democrats Hypocrisy dave Current Events 1 March 3rd, 2010 10:47 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2009-2013 Political Fray. All rights reserved.