The Political Fray - Political Forum
Go Back   Political Fray > The Political Fray > History

History Historical Discussions - For discussion about the great (and not-so-great) happenings of history


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 5th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #21
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
You're jumping to a whole other conclusion.
Why would Cicero think that dislike of a particular character in history was grounds to dismiss the way history was effected by that persons actions.

Terms that he uses such as "elite" or "great men" he is establishing that anybody who sees the impact made by these people and there actions, elevate them to godhood.

They are not great or elite, they may have been scumbags. But their impact on history was made through actions.
clax is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #22
Intern
 
Cicero's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
The people named in the title are just the corner stones of the discussion. The "elite" always are the focal point of history.

What is wrong with people being "elite" as you say?
In what way is the robber baron sitting atop the pyramid the cornerstone?

What is wrong with the elite? You mean besides the fact that they corrupted government, unjustly benefitted from apartheid-laws, made their money on the backs of the oppressed, that sort of thing?
Cicero is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 05:51 PM   #23
Intern
 
Cicero's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
But their impact on history was made through actions.
The actions of all men make history. Why should we celebrate the scumbags who just happened to find their way to an unjust pinnacle?
Cicero is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #24
Intern
 
Cicero's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by myp View Post
You're jumping to a whole other conclusion.
Yes, I would say so.
Cicero is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 06:04 PM   #25
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
The actions of all men make history. Why should we celebrate the scumbags who just happened to find their way to an unjust pinnacle?
Celebrate? Who is celebrating? Discussing the high points is so that we don't have to recount the entirety of the human experience, do you know how many lifetimes there have been? Not to mention the fact that every person wasn't written about in as great detail or even at all.

What impact did Joe shmo have on history anyway?
clax is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #26
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
In what way is the robber baron sitting atop the pyramid the cornerstone?

What is wrong with the elite? You mean besides the fact that they corrupted government, unjustly benefitted from apartheid-laws, made their money on the backs of the oppressed, that sort of thing?
There is no elite. There are just people. Some have wealth some have power, but they are people just the same.

Why do you insist on putting scumbags above you?
clax is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 06:09 PM   #27
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Yes, I would say so.
A logical conclusion to come to sense your only complaint about these people is their wealth and power.
clax is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #28
Intern
 
Cicero's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
A logical conclusion to come to sense your only complaint about these people is their wealth and power.
No, my complaint is that they acquired their wealth and power in unjust ways, as a consequence of an unjust society.

Do you think a plantation owner has earned his wealth and power? Would you give no credit to the slaves?
Cicero is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #29
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
No, my complaint is that they acquired their wealth and power in unjust ways, as a consequence of an unjust society.

Do you think a plantation owner has earned his wealth and power? Would you give no credit to the slaves?
No, but you were carrying on about Vanderbilt. Calling people elite because they have more money than you, was what lead me to that conclusion.

Do you really feel that inferior?
clax is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #30
Intern
 
Cicero's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
No, but you were carrying on about Vanderbilt. Calling people elite because they have more money than you, was what lead me to that conclusion.

Do you really feel that inferior?
I was making an analogy. The Vanderbilts earned their money is much the same way as a plantation owner, by benefiting from the injustice of the period in which they live. The slave-owner simple brings the moral principle into sharper relief. Your personal attacks are not appreciated.
Cicero is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 07:03 PM   #31
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
I was making an analogy. The Vanderbilts earned their money is much the same way as a plantation owner, by benefiting from the injustice of the period in which they live. The slave-owner simple brings the moral principle into sharper relief. Your personal attacks are not appreciated.
I made no personal attack, I simply asked a reasonable question. Do you really feel that inferior to the so called "elite"? If so why, what makes them elite? If you are offended by a simple question than my assumption seems to be more astute now.

What such tactics did the Vanderbilts commit. What people were owned by them, how many slaves did they hold or abuse?

The comparison was vague and emotionally charged, why not compare them to Hitler or satan?

I completely understand that most people gain wealth by exploiting something. If they exploit people in this way or that they are truly scumbags. But isn't that the point of discussing them? Isn't that why our history books talk about slavery and Hitler and so on. It isn't glorifying it is passing information of past mistakes on to the next generation so that wecan evolve.

Why do you think a story about jp Morgan or any other robber Barron from the past or present is to sensationalist their godliness?

Hate them, or love them but understand it is important to discuss them, more so then some miner or mother. Because the miners and mothers didn't create the inequality, they simply survived it. Their stories are valuable but so many are unknown, because they were not recorded.

Isn't it also important to understand that there was a climate which offered the opportunity to the various people mentioned in this thread

Aren't those that do not study their history doomed to repeat it?
clax is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 08:11 PM   #32
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,485

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
Not great men, powerful men. It is with power that history is written and changed. How do you know it would be Smith or somebody else? Perhaps if Henry Ford didn't create a car company a worse person would have.
I don't know, a Nazi traitor building tanks for Germany and using the money to fund the American Nazi Party and an abortive coup seems pretty bad to me.
David is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 08:42 PM   #33
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I don't know, a Nazi traitor building tanks for Germany and using the money to fund the American Nazi Party and an abortive coup seems pretty bad to me.
This makes no sense, it is in reference to nothing and seems to be a bit of an emotional response.

Now if you said so and so was a Nazi traitor and these are the things he did that makes me say that them this post would be of at least some value.

As it stands your statement is of no value.
clax is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 09:24 PM   #34
Intern
 
Cicero's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
I made no personal attack, I simply asked a reasonable question.
I'm afraid that, given the context, I can think of no way to characterize the question "Do you really feel that inferior?" other than as a personal attack. I do not appreciate your implication that my opinions derive from some sort of inferiority complex. I have extended the courtesy to you of refraining from speculation as to your personal motives for supporting the exaltation of the elite, and I would appreciate that you return the favor as to my motivations for finding greater value in history from the people's perspective.
Cicero is offline  
Old January 5th, 2013, 09:53 PM   #35
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
I'm afraid that, given the context, I can think of no way to characterize the question "Do you really feel that inferior?" other than as a personal attack. I do not appreciate your implication that my opinions derive from some sort of inferiority complex. I have extended the courtesy to you of refraining from speculation as to your personal motives for supporting the exaltation of the elite, and I would appreciate that you return the favor as to my motivations for finding greater value in history from the people's perspective.
You keep using words like elite to describe people, then you say some contradiction that you wasn't the peoples perspective, Henry Ford, Carnegie and Vanderbilt were people just like anybody else. You have separated them into a higher level of existence.

If you are offended, that is your own misunderstanding. I made no insinuation that you felt inferior, I just asked you why.

But using words like the elite and seperating them from people is a dehumanizing use of language. Nobody is elite, the concept of elite people our the elite being anti people is a very odd one.

But your over sensativity doesn't make the impact that these men had on history less valid. Frankly I don't wish to discuss your hurt feelings anymore. I would say Butch up but I think that would further insult you. I just will waste no more time discussing your feelings.
clax is offline  
Old January 6th, 2013, 12:20 PM   #36
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,485

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
This makes no sense, it is in reference to nothing and seems to be a bit of an emotional response.

Now if you said so and so was a Nazi traitor and these are the things he did that makes me say that them this post would be of at least some value.

As it stands your statement is of no value.
I'm saying Ford was bad, so 'worse person' is kind of odd to say.
David is offline  
Old January 6th, 2013, 05:06 PM   #37
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I'm saying Ford was bad, so 'worse person' is kind of odd to say.
Ford was scum, but his name is on a lot of things in or nation. His terrible person was not mentioned in history books, perhaps it should be, you don't just blot out the biggest contributor to modern transportation because he was scum, start telling that history.
clax is offline  
Old January 6th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #38
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,485

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
Ford was scum, but his name is on a lot of things in or nation. His terrible person was not mentioned in history books, perhaps it should be, you don't just blot out the biggest contributor to modern transportation because he was scum, start telling that history.
I'm not disagreeing with your point, just your word choice.
David is offline  
Old January 6th, 2013, 08:48 PM   #39
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Texas
Posts: 1,975

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I'm not disagreeing with your point, just your word choice.
Which word?
clax is offline  
Old January 6th, 2013, 08:53 PM   #40
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,485

Quote:
Originally Posted by clax View Post
Which word?
'worse person'
David is offline  
Reply

  Political Fray > The Political Fray > History

Tags
america , built , men



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where does America go from here? =Zoomer= Government and Politics 14 November 20th, 2012 12:35 AM
This built his business without the gov't's help... David Political Humor 5 August 10th, 2012 07:11 AM
The "most" built American cars myp Current Events 1 July 1st, 2011 10:01 PM
Save america Freedom_Now Current Events 3 August 16th, 2010 09:39 PM
Obama said on America........ bunty Current Events 8 January 19th, 2009 08:47 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2009-2013 Political Fray. All rights reserved.