The Political Fray - Political Forum
Go Back   Political Fray > The Political Fray > History

History Historical Discussions - For discussion about the great (and not-so-great) happenings of history


Thanks Tree5Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 25th, 2013, 06:25 PM   #161
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 5,417

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Warrior View Post
So why aren't they 600 years ahead of us now instead of 700 years behind?

Speculation on this is an interesting mind game, but there are more factors involved than simply whether or not one side won a war or a battle.
Mongols...
Thanks from Iolo
David is offline  
Old July 26th, 2013, 08:51 PM   #162
Analyst
 
Salty's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: Arkansas
Posts: 44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy Skeever View Post
Hello everyone! Sir. Charles Wellington III here with an amazing thread again. Either way, what is your opinion on the Holy Crusades?

I have studied the Crusades quite extensively, and know quite a bit about them, the events, and the people involved, but how do you feel about them? Were they Justified?

My thoughts: Yes they were justified, and I believe the Pope had every right to initiate a call to arms from the reaches of Christendom - as the Byzantine Empire was under constant attack from Islam.
Wars go on for money usually. I am just glad the meeting of east and west gave us great art.
Salty is offline  
Old July 27th, 2013, 04:33 AM   #163
Representative
 
Iolo's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: Rhondda, Cymru
Posts: 448

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Warrior View Post
So why aren't they 600 years ahead of us now instead of 700 years behind?

Speculation on this is an interesting mind game, but there are more factors involved than simply whether or not one side won a war or a battle.
Europe got rich and colonised them, obviously. Why did the Indian cotton industry not develop? There are other, internal reasons too, of course, but colonialism explains most things pretty well, I think.
Iolo is offline  
Old July 27th, 2013, 10:07 AM   #164
Representative
 
Road Warrior's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2012
From: North Texas
Posts: 318

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
Europe got rich and colonised them, obviously.
So it's all Europe's fault? The Islamics had no say or responsibility in the matter?

I disagree. So do historians:

History of Science and Technology in Islam
FACTORS BEHIND THE DECLINE OF ISLAMIC SCIENCE AFTER THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY

At the time when scientific communities in Europe were on the increase, all the regions of Islam were witnessing the decline of science and of scientific communities. This phenomenon is discussed by Ibn Khaldūn in more than one chapter in his Introduction (al-Muqaddima).[3] He discusses the factors which are essential to the flourishing of the sciences and the other professions, and the factors which lead to their decline. One chapter carries the title: `That the Professions are Perfected and Become Plenty when the Demand for them Increases.' [4] He says that if a profession is in great demand, people will try to learn it, whereas if there is no demand for a profession it will be neglected and will disappear. `There is here another secret, and it is that the professions and their perfection are demanded by the state, which is the greatest marketplace for the professions', and the needs of the state are so great that the demands of private individuals are too small in comparison, which means that when the state declines all professions decline as well. Another chapter carries the title: `That Regions which Approach a Ruinous State will Become Devoid of the Professions.' [5] When a region becomes weakened, loses its affluence, and its population decreases, the professions will diminish, because they can no longer be afforded, until they finally disappear. He devotes a special chapter to the sciences under the title: `That the Sciences Increase with the Increase in Prosperity and with the Greatness of Civilization in a Region.' [6] After a dis*cussion of his theory he says: `Let us consider what we have known about conditions in Baghdad, Cordoba, al-Qairawan, al-Basra, and al-Kufa. When these cities became populous and prosperous in the first centuries of Islam and civilization became established in them, the seas of science rose and overflowed and scientists marvelled in the terminology and the technicalities of learning and of the various sciences, and in devising various problems and theories until they excelled over the ancients and surpassed those who came after. But when the prosperity of these cities and their civilization decreased and when their population was dispersed, that carpet, with all that was on it, was completely folded and science and learning were lost in them and moved to other regions of Islam.' In discussing the rational sciences, Ibn Khaldūn gives the same analysis, and he remarks that when the empire became established, and when Islamic civilization surpassed all others, Muslims studied eagerly the rational sciences of the ancients until they excelled over them. He remarks that during his time (the second half of the fourteenth century), the rational sci*ences in the Maghrib and in al-Andalus were diminishing because prosperity in these regions was at a low level, whereas in the Eastern regions of Islam, especially in Persia and beyond to Transoxania, the rational sciences were flourishing because of the prosperity of these regions and the stability of their civilization. Ibn Khaldūn was aware also that during his time, the rational sciences in Rome, and in Europe in general, were in great demand, and that there existed in these countries active scientific communities. [7]

The ideas of Ibn Khaldun are repeated by modern scholars. Thus Bernal in his book Science in History [8] repeats in a similar argument that `Science's flourishing periods are found to coincide with economic activity and technical advance. The track science had followed - from Egypt and Mesopotamia to Greece, from Islamic Spain to Renaissance Italy, thence to the Low Countries and France, and then to Scotland and England of the Industrial Revolution - is the same as that of commerce and industry. Between the bursts of activity there have been quiet times, sometimes periods of degeneration. These co*incide with periods when the organization of society was stagnant or deca*dent.'
Road Warrior is offline  
Old July 30th, 2013, 04:17 AM   #165
Representative
 
Iolo's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: Rhondda, Cymru
Posts: 448

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Warrior View Post
So it's all Europe's fault? The Islamics had no say or responsibility in the matter?

I disagree. So do historians:

History of Science and Technology in Islam
FACTORS BEHIND THE DECLINE OF ISLAMIC SCIENCE AFTER THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY

At the time when scientific communities in Europe were on the increase, all the regions of Islam were witnessing the decline of science and of scientific communities. This phenomenon is discussed by Ibn Khaldūn in more than one chapter in his Introduction (al-Muqaddima).[3] He discusses the factors which are essential to the flourishing of the sciences and the other professions, and the factors which lead to their decline. One chapter carries the title: `That the Professions are Perfected and Become Plenty when the Demand for them Increases.' [4] He says that if a profession is in great demand, people will try to learn it, whereas if there is no demand for a profession it will be neglected and will disappear. `There is here another secret, and it is that the professions and their perfection are demanded by the state, which is the greatest marketplace for the professions', and the needs of the state are so great that the demands of private individuals are too small in comparison, which means that when the state declines all professions decline as well. Another chapter carries the title: `That Regions which Approach a Ruinous State will Become Devoid of the Professions.' [5] When a region becomes weakened, loses its affluence, and its population decreases, the professions will diminish, because they can no longer be afforded, until they finally disappear. He devotes a special chapter to the sciences under the title: `That the Sciences Increase with the Increase in Prosperity and with the Greatness of Civilization in a Region.' [6] After a dis*cussion of his theory he says: `Let us consider what we have known about conditions in Baghdad, Cordoba, al-Qairawan, al-Basra, and al-Kufa. When these cities became populous and prosperous in the first centuries of Islam and civilization became established in them, the seas of science rose and overflowed and scientists marvelled in the terminology and the technicalities of learning and of the various sciences, and in devising various problems and theories until they excelled over the ancients and surpassed those who came after. But when the prosperity of these cities and their civilization decreased and when their population was dispersed, that carpet, with all that was on it, was completely folded and science and learning were lost in them and moved to other regions of Islam.' In discussing the rational sciences, Ibn Khaldūn gives the same analysis, and he remarks that when the empire became established, and when Islamic civilization surpassed all others, Muslims studied eagerly the rational sciences of the ancients until they excelled over them. He remarks that during his time (the second half of the fourteenth century), the rational sci*ences in the Maghrib and in al-Andalus were diminishing because prosperity in these regions was at a low level, whereas in the Eastern regions of Islam, especially in Persia and beyond to Transoxania, the rational sciences were flourishing because of the prosperity of these regions and the stability of their civilization. Ibn Khaldūn was aware also that during his time, the rational sciences in Rome, and in Europe in general, were in great demand, and that there existed in these countries active scientific communities. [7]

The ideas of Ibn Khaldun are repeated by modern scholars. Thus Bernal in his book Science in History [8] repeats in a similar argument that `Science's flourishing periods are found to coincide with economic activity and technical advance. The track science had followed - from Egypt and Mesopotamia to Greece, from Islamic Spain to Renaissance Italy, thence to the Low Countries and France, and then to Scotland and England of the Industrial Revolution - is the same as that of commerce and industry. Between the bursts of activity there have been quiet times, sometimes periods of degeneration. These co*incide with periods when the organization of society was stagnant or deca*dent.'
I'm not into 'faults'. Islamic society suffered various stresses and foreign invasions and, like the Chinese - and the Greeks, come to that - tended not to go into the practical possibilities thrown up by science. The development of world capitalism starting in various parts of Europe, backed by stolen capital, tended to destroy the possibility of other societies advancing, as is now closing the door on all intelligent human advances. It is the nature of the beast - boom and bust, roar and rot!
Iolo is offline  
Reply

  Political Fray > The Political Fray > History

Tags
crusades , thoughts



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thoughts about Bitcoin? myp Economics 14 November 13th, 2011 08:52 AM
Stray thoughts on 9-11 Patrick Government and Politics 24 September 17th, 2011 04:10 PM
How to cut thoughts? prasanth5 Religion 2 May 26th, 2010 09:54 AM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2009-2013 Political Fray. All rights reserved.