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Old August 20th, 2013, 05:55 PM   #1
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Fighting against all odds. Loyalty ,an alien concept in America.

One issue dealing with the war in Europe during the 40s. was the determination of Germany to fight against all odds of ever winning.
As late as Dec.1944 waffen SS commanders reported the morale among the combat units was exceptionally high.

" One word I have never learned the meaning of is the word surrender. In fact,the word was never part of my vocabulary" A.H. in a speech to the nation .Berlin, Jan 1945.

The fighting spirit even in the last days of the Reich was seen not only among the military but also the civilian population.

granted some of this was due to the simple fact that had they protested the war and the senselessness of it ,they probably would've been marched out and shot or hung.

But not if it were in the hundreds of thousands as we see going on in cairo today.
No ,the Germans fought til the end or until the leadership was dead.

You didn't see them yelling" Hell no, we won't go! ,Hell no we won't go, Hell no we won't go"

You didn't see tens of thousands marching around with peace signs ; and had they ,there would've been nothing that the gestapo could've done about it.

You didn't see Germans spitting at soldiers returning home from combat in uniform as you saw here happening.

The question is why did they fight both civilians and military down to the end ,even when it was a lost cause?

Maybe they were fighting for a cause worth fighting for!

For something bigger than themselves . Maybe they believed in loyalty no matter the cost!!

Values ,we have lost in America.

Even during the civil war there were draft riots in the north
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Old August 26th, 2013, 05:03 AM   #2
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What is your point? The German people were collectively insane to support the war and the Nazi's. What did they get in the end for their loyalty? The rape of Berlin and the eastern regions. I bet that your favorite movie is Springtime for Hitler........
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Old August 26th, 2013, 06:51 AM   #3
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Don't you think, Falcondule, that the undoubted virtue of loyalty has got to depend upon loyalty to what? 'Germany' had become a pretty narrow concept by the end of the War. An uncle of mine was killed in Norway because the German C in C was facing war-crimes charges and because the U-boat Commanders had refused to obey Doenitz's surrender order. About 150 of our men died for their gesture, and I really can't see the point.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 09:30 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcondule View Post
One issue dealing with the war in Europe during the 40s. was the determination of Germany to fight against all odds of ever winning.
As late as Dec.1944 waffen SS commanders reported the morale among the combat units was exceptionally high.

" One word I have never learned the meaning of is the word surrender. In fact,the word was never part of my vocabulary" A.H. in a speech to the nation .Berlin, Jan 1945.

The fighting spirit even in the last days of the Reich was seen not only among the military but also the civilian population.

granted some of this was due to the simple fact that had they protested the war and the senselessness of it ,they probably would've been marched out and shot or hung.

But not if it were in the hundreds of thousands as we see going on in cairo today.
No ,the Germans fought til the end or until the leadership was dead.

You didn't see them yelling" Hell no, we won't go! ,Hell no we won't go, Hell no we won't go"

You didn't see tens of thousands marching around with peace signs ; and had they ,there would've been nothing that the gestapo could've done about it.

You didn't see Germans spitting at soldiers returning home from combat in uniform as you saw here happening.

The question is why did they fight both civilians and military down to the end ,even when it was a lost cause?

Maybe they were fighting for a cause worth fighting for!

For something bigger than themselves . Maybe they believed in loyalty no matter the cost!!

Values ,we have lost in America.

Even during the civil war there were draft riots in the north
Values, and loyalty require something just/powerful to inspire them. Justice and power however, are concepts individual to people and society. The people of Germany may have seen power and justice in the Nazi message....the people of Japan likely did so as well in the emperor.

Others did not see it, and decided to work their own versions of powerful justice.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 02:45 PM   #5
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The responses I'm getting indicate how little people regard history ;and especially a painful part of american history that resulted in huge casualties.

Nations go to war for various reasons . To an outsider they may seem senseless or insane. . To other nations, the american civil war seems ridiculous ,depending on who you talk to.

The war in europe seems on the surface as just another strong nation , led by a fanatical egotistical dictator , going on a rampage; and the world had to put an end to it.

What this again proves is that the winners in any war get to write the history. and even those who claim to know it all are usually those who know the least.

It's always the fault of the other guy. It's always the beam in the other guy's eye and not our own.

It's O'K' for the usa to have decimated thousands of indian tribes for the sake of western expansion but it was wrong for germany to win back stolen territory ?

The monroe doctrine served its purpose and prevented an invasion of early america from europe but interference in german foreign policy during the 30.s by the usa and england is considered by historians as a rightful duty by freedom loving people.

where was the concern over the indian tribes and black slaves and their freedom.?

Would american foreign policy been much different if stolen american states were involved. Would we have surrendered it or would we have fought?

That's the big issue with war and the toll it takes ; when is it time to surrender . What's your nation worth to you? What's your national honor worth to you?

But blaming others and labeling the sacrifices of a loyal nation is the height of arrogance and will reflect on this nations past
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Old August 26th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
Values, and loyalty require something just/powerful to inspire them. Justice and power however, are concepts individual to people and society. The people of Germany may have seen power and justice in the Nazi message....the people of Japan likely did so as well in the emperor.

Others did not see it, and decided to work their own versions of powerful justice.
Justice and power ??? where do you get this justice and power idea?

Germany was left totally powerless thanks to the versailles peace treaty.. some peace treaty. Even Churchill stated ,he hoped Great Britain would produce a leader to restore britain if it faced the same dire situation.

would any american president have done any less. would any us pres. surrendered and subjected the citizenry to foreign occupation? why do you think germany should've done things differently?

What rank stupidity of history!
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Old August 27th, 2013, 06:26 AM   #7
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You might find more members respond to your posts, if you avoid insulting them when they do so. As it is I personally see no reason to bother doing anything more than monitoring you going forward, as I simply responded to your post with my opinion and received negativity and unfounded critique of my intelligence.

One is left to imagine what it must be like to be around you in real life.
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Old August 27th, 2013, 02:21 PM   #8
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apparently you're not monitoring the insults and disparaging statements headed in my direction.but what should i expect..
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Old August 27th, 2013, 02:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcondule View Post
apparently you're not monitoring the insults and disparaging statements headed in my direction.but what should i expect..
That you do not note my interaction when those things occur does not change the fact I do. That you dismiss my attempt to assist you says all I need to know.
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Old August 27th, 2013, 03:07 PM   #10
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look, people can say whatever they think is right. i 've never used vulgarity or profanity on anyone. Others simply go off topic or sabotage whatever point I'm making because they are overwhelmed by my logic. And as a result bail out quickly and trash my op. that's what passes for intelligent discussion.in america.

i don't dismiss anything!!
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Old August 27th, 2013, 03:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcondule View Post
....snip.....

i don't dismiss anything!!

obviously
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 07:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcondule View Post
One issue dealing with the war in Europe during the 40s. was the determination of Germany to fight against all odds of ever winning.
As late as Dec.1944 waffen SS commanders reported the morale among the combat units was exceptionally high.

" One word I have never learned the meaning of is the word surrender. In fact,the word was never part of my vocabulary" A.H. in a speech to the nation .Berlin, Jan 1945.

The fighting spirit even in the last days of the Reich was seen not only among the military but also the civilian population.

granted some of this was due to the simple fact that had they protested the war and the senselessness of it ,they probably would've been marched out and shot or hung.

But not if it were in the hundreds of thousands as we see going on in cairo today.
No ,the Germans fought til the end or until the leadership was dead.

You didn't see them yelling" Hell no, we won't go! ,Hell no we won't go, Hell no we won't go"

You didn't see tens of thousands marching around with peace signs ; and had they ,there would've been nothing that the gestapo could've done about it.

You didn't see Germans spitting at soldiers returning home from combat in uniform as you saw here happening.

The question is why did they fight both civilians and military down to the end ,even when it was a lost cause?

Maybe they were fighting for a cause worth fighting for!

For something bigger than themselves . Maybe they believed in loyalty no matter the cost!!

Values ,we have lost in America.

Even during the civil war there were draft riots in the north
Royalty traditionally ruled the old world (Europe); in the USA the tradition was self-rule--individual sovereignty. Unfortunately, I think that has been largely lost, to a new royalty here. Our experiment in self-rule has devolved into oligarchy. Maybe the old world had it right: the mass of people are incapable of governing themselves, preferring a superior person to govern them. So, an era of kings is returning?
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 07:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordrid View Post
Royalty traditionally ruled the old world (Europe); in the USA the tradition was self-rule--individual sovereignty. Unfortunately, I think that has been largely lost, to a new royalty here. Our experiment in self-rule has devolved into oligarchy. Maybe the old world had it right: the mass of people are incapable of governing themselves, preferring a superior person to govern them. So, an era of kings is returning?
I wish. No, we'll run this democracy train wreck into the ground until we look like the Soviets in '91.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 01:01 PM   #14
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The winners in history win the right to write history. If the losers perspective is so important why didn't they win?
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 05:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Polydectes View Post
The winners in history win the right to write history. If the losers perspective is so important why didn't they win?
"Might makes right", eh? How delightfully sociopathic!
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 05:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mordrid View Post
"Might makes right", eh? How delightfully sociopathic!
Sorry but that is reality. You can say what you wish but that is how it is. Slow me any time the losers write the history.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 06:35 PM   #17
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Sorry but that is reality. You can say what you wish but that is how it is. Slow me any time the losers write the history.
So, then, it would seem prudent, would it not, to distrust the veracity of any generally accepted historical account? At least until enough time has passed and the victor's influence waned sufficiently to allow the historical record to be revised by those who have a particular affinity for such activity? Right?
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 07:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Mordrid View Post
So, then, it would seem prudent, would it not, to distrust the veracity of any generally accepted historical account? At least until enough time has passed and the victor's influence waned sufficiently to allow the historical record to be revised by those who have a particular affinity for such activity? Right?
No. The historical record doesn't get magically revised after time.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 08:26 PM   #19
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No. The historical record doesn't get magically revised after time.
Really, so everything the Catholics said during the Middle Ages is still accepted history? China is still seen as the center of the civilized world? The Aztecs are still thought of as uncivilized cannibals that were only tamed when the benevolent and holy Spaniards came?
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Old October 4th, 2013, 01:31 AM   #20
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Really, so everything the Catholics said during the Middle Ages is still accepted history? China is still seen as the center of the civilized world? The Aztecs are still thought of as uncivilized cannibals that were only tamed when the benevolent and holy Spaniards came?
Don't think the catholics were the winners nor was China or the spaniards. They were all defeated.
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