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Old October 17th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #1
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Denial!

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J. Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The 'Final Solution' in History: "...From 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz , but probably overall, more Jews were killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." [9]

Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz - allegedly the main extermination center - are no longer clear cut. At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. [10] Until 1990, a memorial plaque at Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." [11]

Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today. In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead.

[12] In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about 775,000 died there during the war years. [13]
Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote: [14}
"... Many questions remain open ... All in all, how many bodies were cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims? How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to these questions at this time."
Gas Chambers
What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here too, Mayer makes a startling statement: "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out that "most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity." [15}

Höss Testimony
One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Höss, an SS officer who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to support its findings of extermination. [16]

It is now well established that Höss' crucial testimony, as well as his so-called "confession" - which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal - are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant nearly to death. [17] Höss' wife and children were also threatened with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement - which would not be admissible today in any United States court of law - Höss claimed the existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated there, and that a further half million died of disease.

[18]
Today no reputable historian upholds these figures. Höss was obviously willing to say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to try to save himself and his family.


Forensic Investigations
In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if they could have been used to kill people as claimed. After a careful study of the alleged killing facilities, Leuchter concluded that the sites were not used, and could not have been used, as homicidal gas chambers. Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter from the walls and floors of the alleged gas chambers showed either no or minuscule traces of cyanide compound, from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. [19]

A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent report) commissioned by the Auschwitz State Museum and conducted by Institute of Forensic Research in Krakow has confirmed Leuchter's finding that minimal or no traces of cyanide compound can be found in the sites alleged to have been gas chambers. [20]

The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities, where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers.

Another forensic study was carried out by German chemist Germar Rudolf. On the basis of his on-site examination and analysis of samples, the certified chemist and doctoral candidate concluded: "For chemical-technical reasons, the claimed mass gassings with hydrocyanic acid in the alleged 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz did not take place ... The supposed facilities for mass killing in Auschwitz and Birkenau were not suitable for this purpose..." [21]

There is also the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lüftl, a respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically impossible." [22]
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Old October 17th, 2013, 03:30 PM   #2
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please read "man's search for meaning" by Victor Frankl.
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Old October 17th, 2013, 05:42 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcondule View Post
There is also the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lüftl, a respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically impossible." [22]
You should go into more detail about this guy. Maybe a link to what he said? That would be nice
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Old October 18th, 2013, 09:14 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by William View Post
You should go into more detail about this guy. Maybe a link to what he said? That would be nice
Hard to do considering he's in Banned Camp (I love the play on words ).
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Old October 18th, 2013, 09:34 AM   #5
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what got him banned, specifically?
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Old October 18th, 2013, 10:00 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by David View Post
Hard to do considering he's in Banned Camp (I love the play on words ).
I noticed that. He wasn't in Banned Camp last night when I wrote that. It's too bad, I'd better not say anymore considering the banned cannot defend themselves.
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Old October 18th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #7
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perhaps the powers that be could discuss reasons for the banning?

(yes he was apparently a racist, but surely, there must have been something specific that occurred?)
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Old October 18th, 2013, 10:24 AM   #8
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His "Hate The Truth?" thread was his very last post.

Last edited by Aufgeblassen; October 18th, 2013 at 10:31 AM.
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Old October 18th, 2013, 12:45 PM   #9
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the individual in question was warned four times before action was taken, which was not the banning. When reprimand and warning was followed by a PM barrage of unpleasantry, he was eliminated.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 05:34 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
..he was eliminated.
wow. That wording makes it sound like this is a final solution to the falcondule question.

Sorry, I had to throw that in there.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 05:55 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by William View Post
wow. That wording makes it sound like this is a final solution to the falcondule question.

Sorry, I had to throw that in there.
"Purged" would have been a good word too. Way back when, my kids were getting free lunch from school. When we no longer qualified, I sent a note to school, saying "Please purge my son from the free lunch program, as he no longer qualifies". LOL!
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