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Old December 28th, 2012, 11:50 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Protectionist View Post
You have not addressed the challenge offered by million of people who say that Islam does NOT fit the definition of the word, because it is too UNethical to be a religion. There's no requirement to address this challenge, but I'm just saying thus far, you haven't.

As far as deviating from my topic, yes I have (in response to deviations)
I Haven't deviated from the topic, the topic is religion.

Islam has its own ethics, it fits the definition.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 11:51 PM   #42
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Hey protectionist, are you one of those people that i have to agree with you or be wrong?
Agree with what ? I haven't stated any position except that millions of people around the world challenge the notion of Islam being a religion.

Read the OP >> "This may come as a surprise to some, but there are millions of people around the world who do not accept the idea of Islam being a religion. The phrase >> "Islam - Not a religion" gets 191 Million results in a Google search.

If everyone who has lived over the past 1400 years could be asked, the results might possibly be in the Billions. Many people question Islam's ability to be a religion because of one primary factor. It's heavy content of immoral behavior. According to my dictionary (Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th ed.), a religion not only is a system of beliefs and worship, it also carries a code of ethics as well. How can Islam possibly fit into this ? - when its Koran is chock full of terrible UNethics..."


"This point of view is a debateable one."

Also, have you read the links in the OP ?
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Old December 28th, 2012, 11:57 PM   #43
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I Haven't deviated from the topic, the topic is religion.

Islam has its own ethics, it fits the definition.
NO, the topic is NOT "religion". The TOPIC if whether Islam is a religion or not.

It's own ethics ? LOL. This is getting crazier by the minute. It's own ethics. Gee, that's terrific. And when those "own ethics" kill innocent people, rape women, beat wives, molest kids, etc., you call these thing "ethics" ? Pheeeeeeww !! (high-pitched whistle).

Don't be ridiculous. These things are IMMORAL. They are the opposite of ethics, and that's why so many people (perhaps most people in the world) question the labeling of Islam as a religion.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 12:11 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Protectionist View Post
NO, the topic is NOT "religion". The TOPIC if whether Islam is a religion or not.
Go talk to a moderator and have my post deleted then

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protectionist View Post
It's own ethics ? LOL. This is getting crazier by the minute. It's own ethics. Gee, that's terrific. And when those "own ethics" kill innocent people, rape women, beat wives, molest kids, etc., you call these thing "ethics" ? Pheeeeeeww !! (high-pitched whistle).
Yes, in their part of the world it is ethical to do such things.

You don't get to decide what is ethical and what isn't.

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Originally Posted by Protectionist View Post
Don't be ridiculous. These things are IMMORAL. They are the opposite of ethics, and that's why so many people (perhaps most people in the world) question the labeling of Islam as a religion.
I am not being ridiculous, morality is subjective, deal with that.

Only person i ever heard come up with this nonsense is you.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #45
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Agree with what ? I haven't stated any position except that millions of people around the world challenge the notion of Islam being a religion.
Can't read the green crap or most colors, dyslexia makes that difficult, so if you want to communicate with me do it in black and white please.

I would suggest millions of people around the world are not clear on the meaning of the word religion.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 04:25 AM   #46
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off topic!
No, just inconvenient.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 04:28 AM   #47
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No, just inconvenient.
I can't read the colored words
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Old December 29th, 2012, 04:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Protectionist View Post
....snip....
Don't be ridiculous. These things are IMMORAL. They are the opposite of ethics, and that's why so many people (perhaps most people in the world) question the labeling of Islam as a religion.
Should we use your understanding of this issue then...there are literally no religions in the world.
Have even Read the Christian Bibles?
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Old December 29th, 2012, 06:48 AM   #49
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Should we use your understanding of this issue then...there are literally no religions in the world.
Have even Read the Christian Bibles?
Man this its a convoluted mess. I really can't make heads or trails of it. Do you get what he is saying?

My dyslexia makes it extremely difficult to read the colored text. Being that my computer screens are all yellow (yellow paper or yellow glasses help me read) red shows up but the green doesn't.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 08:46 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by clax View Post
Man this its a convoluted mess. I really can't make heads or trails of it. Do you get what he is saying?

My dyslexia makes it extremely difficult to read the colored text. Being that my computer screens are all yellow (yellow paper or yellow glasses help me read) red shows up but the green doesn't.
In a nutshell, his point seems to be that Islam is not a religion because there are unethical aspects in the Qu'ran.

Basically, he has decided to use these as a reason to designate those of a Muslim bent as evil, while ignoring the same ethical questions concerning all other religions.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 08:57 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
In a nutshell, his point seems to be that Islam is not a religion because there are unethical aspects in the Qu'ran.

Basically, he has decided to use these as a reason to designate those of a Muslim bent as evil, while ignoring the same ethical questions concerning all other religions.
I see, that is what I thought.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 05:39 PM   #52
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Protectionist, et al,

This is an interesting question and point of view.
NOTE: First, let me apologize for the tardy response. I had not anticipated how long it would take me to digest your introductory comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUNCATED Protectionist View Post
Is Islam a Religion ? This may come as a surprise to some, but there are millions of people around the world who do not accept the idea of Islam being a religion. The phrase >> "Islam - Not a religion" gets 191 Million results in a Google search.
(EXAMPLE)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islam Under Scrutiny by Ex-Muslims
We are a group of Muslim apostates, who have left Islam out of our own conviction when we discovered that Islam is not a religion at all. Most of us took a prolonged period of time to study, evaluate and contemplate on Islam, the religion of our birth. Having meticulously scrutinized Islam, we concluded that it is not a religion of peace at all, as touted by smooth-talking, self-serving Muslims and their apologists from non-Muslim backgrounds. The core of Islam—that is, the Qur'an, Hadis and Sharia—is filled with unbounded hatred of the unbelievers, is unbelievably intolerant toward them, and is extremely cruel and merciless to Muslims who dare to deviate from its doctrine.
SOURCE: http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm
(NOTES
  • conviction
  • not a religion of peace
  • unbounded hatred
  • intolerant
  • deviate from its doctrine
Definition:
  • The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defining Religion
While there are many specific and different religions, religion itself is an abstract concept - a general category of human pursuit that manifests itself in a variety of ways in different cultures, times and places. It is easy enough to create a list of different religions by name but to lump them all together in a single group (religion) and then try to describe or define what that group is, can be a rather perplexing task. We need to think in terms of a category rather than in terms of “kinds of…” that fit into that category.
SOURCE: http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/re...ngReligion.htm
(COMMENT)
First, to hold a firmly held belief or opinion on the supernational and the character of a Supreme Being (SB), good, bad or indifferent (as maybe socially defined by your locality) is a "religion." I firmly believe in the SB that takes the form of the "Stay Puff Marshmallow Man" (of Ghost Busters fame), and my sacrement is a "Luxurious French Vanilla Cappuccino." Although the religion may be small, and not generally recognized, it is a firmly held conviction. The conviction (good, bad or indifferent) may be anything, and it may evolve over time, but the conviction is a requirement.

Second: If my new religion advocates war on those heretics over at "Starbucks," is that so different than the French Wars of Religion (1562–1598), or the Scottish Reformation to break free from Rome (1560).

Third: The idea of unbounded hatred is a human concept, much like the mid-20th Century German and the Jewish population; or that of the Pol Pot Regime. Hatred is not limited to religious values.

Fourth: Whether we speak of the Inquisition, or the or the Sunni-Shi'ite dispute, the concept of "intolerance" is a human construct to further power and influence, and dates back to before the Pharaoh Akhenaten and his attempt at monotheism.

Fifth: The idea of a "deviate from its doctrine" exactly describes the split during the Reformation and the creation of the Church of England. It as well does not make a Religious Belief invalid.
(ANSWER)

Is "Islam" a religion? Yes. The question is, whether the Religion of Islam, is beneficial to man and the development of the species? Some would say, clearly not!

Most Respectfully,
R
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Old December 29th, 2012, 06:48 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by clax View Post
Go talk to a moderator and have my post deleted then


Yes, in their part of the world it is ethical to do such things.

You don't get to decide what is ethical and what isn't.


I am not being ridiculous, morality is subjective, deal with that.

Only person i ever heard come up with this nonsense is you.
What NONSENSE! What in the world are you thinking ?

NO, it is NOT ethical IN ANY PART OF THE WORLD to kill by genocide, to enslave, to beat wives, to oppress women severely, to molest children. Morality most certainly is NOT SUBJECTIVE. You call these CRIMES subjective ? You talk like an insane person. Only person you heard, huh ? LOL.. You must not have heard many people. Absolutely NOBODY would have the idiocy or gall to call murder, wife-beating, pedophilia, etc "subjective"
Pheeeeeeeeewww !!! (high-pitched whistle)

I don't know where you live, but if it's anywhere in the USA, you might want to get on a plane out of here QUICK.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 06:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
Should we use your understanding of this issue then...there are literally no religions in the world.
Have even Read the Christian Bibles?
I have enough knowledge of it to know that it does not contain the IMMORAL (and ILLEGAL under US laws) that the Koran contains. And as I've said before (are you all PAYING ATTENTION ?), a book (the New Testament) isn't Christianity. Jesus Christ and his words are. Get it ?
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Old December 29th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
In a nutshell, his point seems to be that Islam is not a religion because there are unethical aspects in the Qu'ran.

Basically, he has decided to use these as a reason to designate those of a Muslim bent as evil, while ignoring the same ethical questions concerning all other religions.
No, I have not decided to use anything. You get a lot of things wrong, don't you ? Maybe you ought to slow down, and not talk so fast.

And there are no ethical questions like Islam has, in Christianity. NONE.

And you haven't shown any.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 06:57 PM   #56
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I see, that is what I thought.
You thought WRONG.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 07:02 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by RoccoR View Post
Protectionist, et al,

This is an interesting question and point of view.
NOTE: First, let me apologize for the tardy response. I had not anticipated how long it would take me to digest your introductory comment.
(EXAMPLE)

(NOTES
  • conviction
  • not a religion of peace
  • unbounded hatred
  • intolerant
  • deviate from its doctrine
Definition:
  • The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

(COMMENT)
First, to hold a firmly held belief or opinion on the supernational and the character of a Supreme Being (SB), good, bad or indifferent (as maybe socially defined by your locality) is a "religion." I firmly believe in the SB that takes the form of the "Stay Puff Marshmallow Man" (of Ghost Busters fame), and my sacrement is a "Luxurious French Vanilla Cappuccino." Although the religion may be small, and not generally recognized, it is a firmly held conviction. The conviction (good, bad or indifferent) may be anything, and it may evolve over time, but the conviction is a requirement.

Second: If my new religion advocates war on those heretics over at "Starbucks," is that so different than the French Wars of Religion (1562–1598), or the Scottish Reformation to break free from Rome (1560).

Third: The idea of unbounded hatred is a human concept, much like the mid-20th Century German and the Jewish population; or that of the Pol Pot Regime. Hatred is not limited to religious values.

Fourth: Whether we speak of the Inquisition, or the or the Sunni-Shi'ite dispute, the concept of "intolerance" is a human construct to further power and influence, and dates back to before the Pharaoh Akhenaten and his attempt at monotheism.

Fifth: The idea of a "deviate from its doctrine" exactly describes the split during the Reformation and the creation of the Church of England. It as well does not make a Religious Belief invalid.
(ANSWER)

Is "Islam" a religion? Yes. The question is, whether the Religion of Islam, is beneficial to man and the development of the species? Some would say, clearly not!

Most Respectfully,
R
But it appears to NOT be a religion as defined by this dictionary (Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th ed.) which stipulates a code of ethics in the definition. And millions of people do agree with this. Probably billions over the past 1400 years. So what it seems to all come down to is which definition (among quite a few) one references.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 09:03 PM   #58
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Protectionist, et al,

This is but one definition and one interpretation of the definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protectionist View Post
But it appears to NOT be a religion as defined by this dictionary (Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th ed.) which stipulates a code of ethics in the definition. And millions of people do agree with this. Probably billions over the past 1400 years. So what it seems to all come down to is which definition (among quite a few) one references.
(COMMENT)

Islam has a "Code of Ethics," several. It is just that the Islamic Ethics are not generally the same as Christian Ethics.While the Webster's New World College Dictionary is an excellent resource, it is a layman's level explanation of the word; an explanation at a glance. It is simplified. But it doesn't it gives an indepth insight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by is·lam / isˈläm /
Noun
The religion of the Muslims, a monotheistic faith regarded as revealed through Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah.
The Muslim world.
SOURCE: First Google "definition islam"
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...w=1867&bih=877
The mistake is attempting to reconstruct a definition from a category definition. It is generally accepted that Islam is a religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Islamic philosophy and the Islamic sciences
Islamic philosophy has always had a rather difficult relationship with the Islamic sciences, those techniques for answering theoretical questions which are closely linked with the religion of Islam, comprising law, theology, language and the study of the religious texts themselves. Many theologians such as Ibn Hazm, al-Juwayni and Fakhr al-Din alRazi presented accounts of Islamic theology which argued for a particular theory of how to interpret religious texts.

edward craig; Craig, Edward (2007-03-20). Shorter Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (p. 459). Taylor & Francis. Kindle Edition.
While there may be millions of people that attempt to apply a thumbnail definition of "Religion" and work backwards to analyze "Islam;" it is a flawed concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1. The fundamental texts, the approaches, the issues
The assumption of the oneness of truth, common among Arab philosophers, allows the metaphysical part of philosophy to provide a rational and coherent account of the same divine realm disclosed by revelation, thereby putting it in competition with Islamic theology. The results of these three doctrinal concerns are interconnected, since a certain view of metaphysics as a science, and a certain stand on specific doctrinal points, can enhance or reduce the affinity of metaphysics with Islamic religion and the possibility of its integration into Muslim culture. A conception of metaphysics that limits the scope of this science to philosophical theology and minimizes the relevance of the general doctrine of being is particularly apt to underscore its compatibility with Islam.
SOURCE: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ar...c-metaphysics/
Most Respectfully,
R
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Old December 29th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #59
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What NONSENSE! What in the world are you thinking ?

NO, it is NOT ethical IN ANY PART OF THE WORLD to kill by genocide, to enslave, to beat wives, to oppress women severely, to molest children. Morality most certainly is NOT SUBJECTIVE. You call these CRIMES subjective ? You talk like an insane person. Only person you heard, huh ? LOL.. You must not have heard many people. Absolutely NOBODY would have the idiocy or gall to call murder, wife-beating, pedophilia, etc "subjective"
Pheeeeeeeeewww !!! (high-pitched whistle)

I don't know where you live, but if it's anywhere in the USA, you might want to get on a plane out of here QUICK.
Crime is only crime if it is against the law.

Morality is subjective absolutely, any code of ethics based on it is subjective.

Your personal comments really kind of hint at your inability to accept that.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Protectionist View Post
But it appears to NOT be a religion as defined by this dictionary (Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th ed.) which stipulates a code of ethics in the definition. And millions of people do agree with this. Probably billions over the past 1400 years. So what it seems to all come down to is which definition (among quite a few) one references.
morality is subjective, and any code of ethics based on the morality is subjective also.
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