The Political Fray - Political Forum
Go Back   Political Fray > The Political Fray > Religion

Religion For discussion about different religions and belief structures - Please be respectful of other's beliefs


Thanks Tree19Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 13th, 2016, 12:19 PM   #21
Governor
 
arcturus88's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: NC
Posts: 2,300

The Mormons believe in pre-existence too, but as I understand it, most Christians do not.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you...”
arcturus88 is offline  
Old September 15th, 2017, 10:11 AM   #22
Representative
 
Road Warrior's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2012
From: North Texas
Posts: 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
what are your thoughts on souls?

did they pre-exist before the physical human body (pre-existence model)and are implanted into the human at conception or are they created with the body at the time of conception (co-created model)?

i tend to go for the pre-existence model. it seems that God could place a soul into a particular life so as to allow for a particular set of tests or particular bit of learning.
If souls pre-exist, then why is God punishing them by sending them to Earth? Doesn't that also require one to accept the idea of reincarnation?

My thoughts are the souls are grown and ascend to the higher existence of Heaven. Some are bigger (spiritually) than others when they transcend mortality.
Thanks from tecoyah
Road Warrior is offline  
Old September 15th, 2017, 11:35 AM   #23
Governor
 
arcturus88's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: NC
Posts: 2,300

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Warrior View Post
If souls pre-exist, then why is God punishing them by sending them to Earth? Doesn't that also require one to accept the idea of reincarnation?

My thoughts are the souls are grown and ascend to the higher existence of Heaven. Some are bigger (spiritually) than others when they transcend mortality.
please peruse my pet theory and let me know your thoughts:

http://politicalfray.com/religion/4151-quarantine-evil.html


Quote:
From the Bible, we learn that God cast out 1/3 of heaven's angels. Those that chose to follow lucifer were expelled from heaven.

But why?

I suspect that evil is a thing, a disease. A self-willed disease of sorts. It is also highly contagious and very corrosive to the being it infects (think WWZ).

As such, God quarantined evil to earth. He could not allow it to infect heaven and or the universe so he isolated it to one planet.

Then one must then wonder, why would God have souls (implanted in human bodies) reside on this planet infected with evil? That seems cruel, no?

Imagine however, that souls where in heaven at the time of lucifer's fall. souls that were developing in a kind of divine incubator. It may very well be that the souls were exposed to this evil while in this developmental stage. Angels, however, were fully developed able to rightly choose or not choose evil. Souls, on the other hand, were not yet fully developed; as such their "choice" was not a fair choice.

God had mandated that those infected with evil must be cast out and quarantined, however, what of these souls that were developing. they were exposed...but is it fair to cast them out? They were immature, not capable of real choice.

God devised a plan. He froze the souls in heaven and to let them develop on the quarantined planet where they would be able to rightfully choose evil or not. They will be placed into human bodies and as such into divinely created scenarios where the "choice" will truly be theirs.
arcturus88 is offline  
Old September 15th, 2017, 11:53 AM   #24
Secretary of State
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 4,815

Until a thing is shown to even exist any talk of "When" is not even worthy of speculation. It is fine for any individual to believe whatever they wish, but claiming it as reality for anyone else is unacceptable.
Thanks from Aufgeblassen
tecoyah is offline  
Old September 15th, 2017, 01:37 PM   #25
Representative
 
Road Warrior's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2012
From: North Texas
Posts: 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
please peruse my pet theory and let me know your thoughts:

http://politicalfray.com/religion/4151-quarantine-evil.html
1) The Bible, while containing a lot of ancient wisdom, also contains a lot of perceptions from relatively unsophisticated people 2000-4000 years ago.

2) If God is both all-knowing and all-powerful, then God knowingly created "evil" and there can be no doubt about the victor in a battle between good and evil.

3) I expect the vast majority of the story about Lucifer and fallen angels is apocryphal. although there is the possibility that it's a distortion of actual historical events such as fallen civilizations or the arrival of humans on the planet. This latter is intriguing, and there are tens of thousands of year gaps in our history, but has zero evidence backing it.
Thanks from tecoyah
Road Warrior is offline  
Old September 16th, 2017, 06:17 AM   #26
Governor
 
arcturus88's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: NC
Posts: 2,300

Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
... but claiming it as reality for anyone else is unacceptable.

has this occurred on this thread?

how does one "claim a reality" for someone else?
arcturus88 is offline  
Old September 16th, 2017, 06:34 AM   #27
Secretary of State
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 4,815

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
has this occurred on this thread?

how does one "claim a reality" for someone else?
Please read what you decided to harp on in context in order to avoid seeming disingenuous.

"Until a thing is shown to even exist any talk of "When" is not even worthy of speculation. It is fine for any individual to believe whatever they wish, but claiming it as reality for anyone else is unacceptable."
tecoyah is offline  
Old September 16th, 2017, 06:41 AM   #28
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,631

What about post- existence? I say NOPE! Once you're dead you're gone (unfortunately).

Your soul = your personality (as in "old King Cole was a merry old soul"). A dead body has no personality at all.
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old September 16th, 2017, 08:03 PM   #29
Governor
 
arcturus88's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: NC
Posts: 2,300

Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
Please read what you decided to harp on in context in order to avoid seeming disingenuous.

"Until a thing is shown to even exist any talk of "When" is not even worthy of speculation. It is fine for any individual to believe whatever they wish, but claiming it as reality for anyone else is unacceptable."

Yeah. It's the part in bold I'm questioning. Has this happened? Have I claimed my theory as a reality for anyone else here?
arcturus88 is offline  
Old September 16th, 2017, 11:34 PM   #30
Secretary of State
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 4,815

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
Yeah. It's the part in bold I'm questioning. Has this happened? Have I claimed my theory as a reality for anyone else here?
This thread asks a question, a question asked generally infers there is something that begs an answer, "Something" must exists to be answered. I answered.

There is no logical reason to take this as some personal response.
tecoyah is offline  
Old September 18th, 2017, 06:28 AM   #31
Governor
 
arcturus88's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: NC
Posts: 2,300

Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
This thread asks a question, a question asked generally infers there is something that begs an answer, "Something" must exists to be answered. I answered.

There is no logical reason to take this as some personal response.
very well.
arcturus88 is offline  
Old September 18th, 2017, 06:03 PM   #32
Governor
 
numan's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2016
From: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,084

'
I like to toy with the fancy, common to both the Zoroastrians and the Neo-Platonists, that the vast mass of "our" souls resides beyond the boundaries of space and time. A personal soul is merely a tiny fragment of the Oversoul, which, like the pseudopod of an amoeba, explores a region of space and time and then is withdrawn back into the mass of the Oversoul with what it has collected from its explorations.
.
Thanks from arcturus88
numan is offline  
Old September 19th, 2017, 06:47 PM   #33
Representative
 
Road Warrior's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2012
From: North Texas
Posts: 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by numan View Post
'
I like to toy with the fancy, common to both the Zoroastrians and the Neo-Platonists, that the vast mass of "our" souls resides beyond the boundaries of space and time. A personal soul is merely a tiny fragment of the Oversoul, which, like the pseudopod of an amoeba, explores a region of space and time and then is withdrawn back into the mass of the Oversoul with what it has collected from its explorations.
.
Po-TA-to, po-TAH-to. Another name for "Oversoul" is God. Not the "God" written into certain ancient texts, but the power behind the creation of the Universe and of which we are all a part.

One analogy I've used is the cycle of water on Earth: There is the great Ocean. Heat causes some water to evaporate, rise, condense and fall back into the Ocean as individual drops. Some of those drops fall onto land and, after a great journey, back into the great Ocean. The drops are never lost when melting back into the Ocean because they were always part of the Ocean to begin with.
Road Warrior is offline  
Old September 19th, 2017, 08:16 PM   #34
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 6,119

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Warrior View Post
1) The Bible, while containing a lot of ancient wisdom, also contains a lot of perceptions from relatively unsophisticated people 2000-4000 years ago.

2) If God is both all-knowing and all-powerful, then God knowingly created "evil" and there can be no doubt about the victor in a battle between good and evil.

3) I expect the vast majority of the story about Lucifer and fallen angels is apocryphal. although there is the possibility that it's a distortion of actual historical events such as fallen civilizations or the arrival of humans on the planet. This latter is intriguing, and there are tens of thousands of year gaps in our history, but has zero evidence backing it.
You assume Yahweh, Canaanite storm god and self proclaimed as vengeful and greedy, isn't evil. The assumption that Yahweh is benevolent (contrary to his own pronouncements) is the source of your confusion. Yahweh demands that we (willingly) submit to him as slaves ready and eager to do his bidding. To those that submit and obey he promises greatness (for a slave) and for all others death. He is an evil god that rewards his minions and loyal (and useful) slaves. When you understand this, his allowing of evil and suffering is not at all baffling, indeed it's clear it can be no other way.
David is offline  
Old September 19th, 2017, 10:28 PM   #35
Secretary of State
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 4,815

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
You assume Yahweh, Canaanite storm god and self proclaimed as vengeful and greedy, isn't evil. The assumption that Yahweh is benevolent (contrary to his own pronouncements) is the source of your confusion. Yahweh demands that we (willingly) submit to him as slaves ready and eager to do his bidding. To those that submit and obey he promises greatness (for a slave) and for all others death. He is an evil god that rewards his minions and loyal (and useful) slaves. When you understand this, his allowing of evil and suffering is not at all baffling, indeed it's clear it can be no other way.
It is also important to note that you must deal with his middleman and never even meet this God, while understanding this middleman does not exactly have a sterling reputation.
Thanks from Aufgeblassen
tecoyah is offline  
Old September 20th, 2017, 07:37 AM   #36
Vice President
 
David's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Opa Locka
Posts: 6,119

Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
It is also important to note that you must deal with his middleman and never even meet this God, while understanding this middleman does not exactly have a sterling reputation.
I chulk a good part of that up to the Roman government trying to take control of Jesus' cult than any actual religious messaging. When I was a Christian I was a red text Christian for that reason and Jesus pretty clearly says that pray in private, pray simply and pray TO Yahweh. The idea that people are supposed to worship Jesus (contrary to what he said and a blatant violation of the 1st Commandment) is something the Romans invented to win over polytheists. He's not REALLY a middle man, just a messenger.
David is offline  
Old September 20th, 2017, 07:44 AM   #37
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,631

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
When I was a Christian I was a red text Christian
What in the Barney purple blazes is that???

In the ENTIRE World Wide Web, only one (1) individual used that EXACT phrase!!! In other words, NO SUCH THING!

https://www.google.com/search?source...40.C6HIEXP2heI
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old September 20th, 2017, 08:33 AM   #38
Governor
 
arcturus88's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: NC
Posts: 2,300

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
What in the Barney purple blazes is that???

In the ENTIRE World Wide Web, only one (1) individual used that EXACT phrase!!! In other words, NO SUCH THING!

if you can't find it on the internet, it doesn't exist?

denial is a powerful defense mechanism for you. Ironic, or perhaps telling, given your atheism.
arcturus88 is offline  
Old September 20th, 2017, 08:40 AM   #39
President
 
Aufgeblassen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2013
From: Central FL
Posts: 11,631

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
if you can't find it on the internet, it doesn't exist?

denial is a powerful defense mechanism for you. Ironic, or perhaps telling, given your atheism.
Somebody's own personal/private phrases do indeed exist. But they are MEANINGLESS to the rest of the world!!!
Aufgeblassen is offline  
Old September 20th, 2017, 08:43 AM   #40
Governor
 
arcturus88's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: NC
Posts: 2,300

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
Somebody's own personal/private phrases do indeed exist. But they are MEANINGLESS to the rest of the world!!!
I know what he meant.

Someone who follows the words Jesus spoke. In many bibles they are highlighted in red.
Thanks from David
arcturus88 is offline  
Reply

  Political Fray > The Political Fray > Religion

Tags
preexistence , souls



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you believe in the existence of atheists? CreaseMonkeyDotCom Religion 26 May 22nd, 2010 02:29 AM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2009-2013 Political Fray. All rights reserved.