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Old September 18th, 2013, 03:14 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Polydectes View Post
I know plenty on this subject thank you.

The Talmud was written between 200-500 years after Christ was crucified. so it really isn't a first hand account or even a credible one. During battles between Jews and early Christians the Talmud was written.
During this time there was turmoil among the Jewish sects over which religion was the correct one. At this time also christianity was first legalized in the Byzantine empire.

So I can believe, and think that it is far more likely that the excerpts in the Talmud where it says something to the effect of," there is no reason to feel ashamed because we rightfully executed a blasphemer and idolater," was politically motivated by the Jews at the time.

Its a form of "evangelism" for lack of a better word. mock the pillar of this faith and more people will chose the other.

The fact that it only appears in the Babylonian Talmud in the third and forth century, right when constantine legalized christianity, makes me skeptical of it's authenticity.

Not to mention the Babylonian Talmud contained in it mockery of the gospel of John. Being that the Jews in this time had a lot of freedom in Sasanian Babylonia relative to Christians in Babylon as well as byzantine and Roman empires.

I find the account in the Talmud to be highly suspect, much more likely that the Jewish people of the time were attempting to break the spirit of the early Christians.

all I really get from this is that it is dangerous to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. It is a text that is easily altered. Look at the septuagint, it was altered, look at the apocrypha, there are more books that were altered, but this is done for political reasons.
Herman Wouk, the very popular Jewish writer,98 describes the influence of the Talmud as follows:
The Talmud is to this day the circulating heart’s blood of the Jewish religion. Whatever laws, customs, or ceremonies we observe — whether we are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or merely spasmodic sentimentalists — we follow the Talmud. It is our common law.99
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Old September 18th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
As the Talmud (and Gemara) were Oral pass downs for most of the history they play....the written versions are very likely dissimilar to the multiple originals....if there is such a thing.

Please post for us the passages you feel state that which you claim.
The late Dr. Israel Shahak. was a holocaust survivor and professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Professor Shahak reported that the Zionists publicly and ceremoniously burned hundreds of copies of the New Testament in Jerusalem on March 23, 1980. They were destroyed under the auspices of Yad Le’akhim, a Jewish religious organization subsidized by the Israeli Ministry of Religions.7 Here are some direct quotations from Professor Israel Shahak:
Judaism is imbued with a very deep hatred toward Christianity combined with ignorance about it. This attitude was clearly aggravated by the Christian persecutions of Jews, but is largely independent of them. In fact, it dates from the time when Christianity was still weak and persecuted (not least by Jews), and it was shared by Jews who had never been persecuted by Christians or who were even helped by them…
According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the Talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned. . .
The very name Jesus was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable, and this popular tradition still persists. The Gospels are equally detested, and they are not allowed to be quoted (let alone taught) even in modern Israeli schools.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 05:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by falcondule View Post
Herman Wouk, the very popular Jewish writer,98 describes the influence of the Talmud as follows:
The Talmud is to this day the circulating heart’s blood of the Jewish religion. Whatever laws, customs, or ceremonies we observe — whether we are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or merely spasmodic sentimentalists — we follow the Talmud. It is our common law.99
So what, it was still subject to alerting in the past. And you still haven't proved anything. I find it dubious that the Talmud says something so inflammatory but was written just when they were having serious social issues of unrest with the newly legalized religion of christianity.

Just repeating your distaste for what it says doesn't mean it is historically accurate
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Old September 18th, 2013, 05:09 PM   #24
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You lack reading comprehension ,almost as bad as aufgewek.. all that really matters is that they believe it and forms their evil mindset .. who do you think is instigating all of america's wars?
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Old September 18th, 2013, 05:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by falcondule View Post
You lack reading comprehension ,almost as bad as aufgewek.. all that really matters is that they believe it and forms their evil mindset .. who do you think is instigating all of america's wars?
I am sorry I don't buy your Jew conspiracy.

There is not any proof that the indeed crucified Christ, it doesn't matter if they did because it was necessary that he be sacrificed, that was his purpose. His sacrifice bought our salvation.

people have been pitching thus anti zion crap for decades kind of like the Freemason conspiracy.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #26
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it forms the basis for their hatred of all christians ;they want you to die..
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Old September 18th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #27
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it forms the basis for their hatred of all christians ;they want you to die..
Oh my. They haven't managed to do anything about it in 2013 years, I an not worried about it they obviously aren't that serious about it.

I don't mean this as a slam against you, but out of curiosity, are you a neo Nazi?
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Old September 25th, 2013, 09:59 AM   #28
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Jesus, after all, wasn't murdered: he was executed by the competent authorities, just like so many thousands of other people before and since. The key difference is that his followers were convinced he didn't stay dead, and that is what this is all about. We can't go back and check, but subsequent developments suggest s HUGE conviction, a conviction strong enough to break the Empire and all its authoritarian hogwash.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 03:50 PM   #29
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They actually never did murder Christ. He pretended to be dead, then they put what they thought was his lifeless body into a cave. Then after they sealed the front of the cave, he escaped through a secret back exit.
Pretty much.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 09:49 AM   #30
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Yeah, it is amazing that the simple hoax perpetrated lives on to this day. If it weren`t for the mythology of Christ "rising from the dead", there would be no Christianity at all!!!
Some inconsistencies: 1. He 'died' in 6 hours by an execution method designed to kill over days. 2. He 'died' instantly after taking a sip of wine. 3. Marry urged the Romans to take down his body immediately (What was the rush so long as he wasn't rotting?). The Romans were obvious suspicious thus the spear to the side to confirm he was dead. 3. The 'mourners' were bringing medicine and bandages to a tomb. 4. 3 days later he 'resurrects' (odd that this is both a plausible recovery time and matches up with the Resurrection stories of the major religions of the time). 5. He goes around letting his supporters know he lived then 'ascends' promising to return soon.

Based on this and extra-biblical evidence, this is what I think happened. He was crucified as told but given a sedative to simulate death. Being alive, Marry knew she had to remove Jesus from the cross before he suffocated drawing the suspicions of the Romans. Because of the sedative Jesus didn't stir after being speared and so the Romans took him down. Jesus was then taken to a 'tomb' and given 3 days to regain his strength before being forced to revival himself and play the divine resurrection card. After letting his survival become known, Jesus fled the Empire (for obvious reasons) promising to return when he could and fled east to the Jewish communities in India. Speaking with returning caravans on the Silk road he learned that far from being forgotten he had become the Empire's most (in)famous person and the inspiration of an entirely knew religion. Realizing the Romans would always be waiting for him, Jesus was forced to remain in exile and the 2nd coming preached by the Christians and Muslims is a misunderstanding of Jesus' plan to return when things cooled down.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 07:52 AM   #31
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Some inconsistencies: 1. He 'died' in 6 hours by an execution method designed to kill over days. 2. He 'died' instantly after taking a sip of wine. 3. Marry urged the Romans to take down his body immediately (What was the rush so long as he wasn't rotting?). The Romans were obvious suspicious thus the spear to the side to confirm he was dead. 3. The 'mourners' were bringing medicine and bandages to a tomb. 4. 3 days later he 'resurrects' (odd that this is both a plausible recovery time and matches up with the Resurrection stories of the major religions of the time). 5. He goes around letting his supporters know he lived then 'ascends' promising to return soon.

Based on this and extra-biblical evidence, this is what I think happened. He was crucified as told but given a sedative to simulate death. Being alive, Marry knew she had to remove Jesus from the cross before he suffocated drawing the suspicions of the Romans. Because of the sedative Jesus didn't stir after being speared and so the Romans took him down. Jesus was then taken to a 'tomb' and given 3 days to regain his strength before being forced to revival himself and play the divine resurrection card. After letting his survival become known, Jesus fled the Empire (for obvious reasons) promising to return when he could and fled east to the Jewish communities in India. Speaking with returning caravans on the Silk road he learned that far from being forgotten he had become the Empire's most (in)famous person and the inspiration of an entirely knew religion. Realizing the Romans would always be waiting for him, Jesus was forced to remain in exile and the 2nd coming preached by the Christians and Muslims is a misunderstanding of Jesus' plan to return when things cooled down.
As I recollect, this is pretty much the position taken by the book, 'The Passover Plot'. My own feeling is that the people described - Mary and so on - were not very likely plotters: the book puts it down to 'the Jerusalem Church', safe in the knowledge we know little about it. My own hunch was that a series of circumstances - Pilate not too keen, Sabbath looming and so on - meant that the job was rushed and that Jesus survived anyway, perhaps with the assistance of someone - Joseph of Arimathea perhaps? - who had the nous to realise he was still alive. How can we know at this distance? It is the effect on the others that matters, and that was revolutionary if you like!
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Old November 18th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #32
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Jesus was not murdered. He was executed for treason

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen View Post
They actually never did murder Christ. He pretended to be dead, then they put what they thought was his lifeless body into a cave. Then after they sealed the front of the cave, he escaped through a secret back exit.
Jesus was not murdered. The Roman state executed him for treason. It was a lawful execution. Socrates, similarly, was executed in accordance with the law.
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