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Old May 2nd, 2016, 12:10 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
"good" or "bad" are a social constructs too, so it's kind of hard to say. in fact hard is a social construct as well, so it's hard to say it's "hard" to say.
Hard is actually objective. Something that requires little work is easy, something that requires a lot of work is hard.
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 04:06 AM   #22
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Now you sound like Bill Clinton saying it depends on what the definition of is, is.
What do you think of Bill doing this?
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 04:10 AM   #23
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Hard is actually objective. Something that requires little work is easy, something that requires a lot of work is hard.

Hard and easy are arbitrary constructs used to describe a position on a society's work compass. The closest you'll come to an objective hard/easy is various work situations in which a view is commonly held across time and culture, ie. sawing a redwood being hard and slicing butter being easy. Even then it's simple coincidence (and hardly universal) rather than a true objective fact.
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 04:15 AM   #24
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What do you think of Bill doing this?
Typical lawyer.
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 04:57 AM   #25
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Hard and easy are arbitrary constructs used to describe a position on a society's work compass. The closest you'll come to an objective hard/easy is various work situations in which a view is commonly held across time and culture, ie. sawing a redwood being hard and slicing butter being easy. Even then it's simple coincidence (and hardly universal) rather than a true objective fact.
But I already demonstrated that's not true. Nice try though.
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 05:12 AM   #26
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But I already demonstrated that's not true. Nice try though.
I propose a terminology change to simplify. Difficult vs. Simple.

It is difficult to gather wool, weave it into a blanket and survive a winter storm.
It is simple to huddle in a a cave near a fire to do the same thing. Avoiding stealing anothers blanket is a simple act of morality in culture...doing so when it will save your child is not as easy.

It would be "Good" to not take the blanket yet easily considered "Evil" to let your child die.

The two terms are indeed arbitrary as they are entirely based on personal opinion of the individual.
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 08:05 AM   #27
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But I already demonstrated that's not true. Nice try though.
I agree that you tried to demonstrate that it is not true. but is that truth you mention...subjective or objective?

What I highlight (or attempt to) is that one really just cherry-picks the things they want categorized as objective or subjective.

To the point, I think there are ultimate objective truths. However, I also believe that all are in some way subjective in their ability to capture or grasp these truths. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try to grasp it or that our conception of them are "arbitrary or random", rather they are reasoned grasps at the objective truth.
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 09:20 AM   #28
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I agree that you tried to demonstrate that it is not true. but is that truth you mention...subjective or objective?

What I highlight (or attempt to) is that one really just cherry-picks the things they want categorized as objective or subjective.

To the point, I think there are ultimate objective truths. However, I also believe that all are in some way subjective in their ability to capture or grasp these truths. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try to grasp it or that our conception of them are "arbitrary or random", rather they are reasoned grasps at the objective truth.
Hard/Easy is a matter of relevance, not subjection. Morality on the other hand is the opposite, name 1 example of an objective moral position. You can't, even people living within the same culture can't agree.
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 11:32 AM   #29
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Hard/Easy is a matter of relevance, not subjection. Morality on the other hand is the opposite, name 1 example of an objective moral position. You can't, even people living within the same culture can't agree.
no they're subjective.

for proof of their subjectivity, I offer you my disagreement.
since we disagree = they are subjective.

morality has an objectivity at its core (as does hard or easy or quality or truth) but people only grasp at it subjectively. charity (as good) or murder (as evil) as you mentioned, are areas where people have come closer to this objectivity, not randomly but through reason.

by example:

a car runs a stop light and hits a kid on a bike and speeds off.

three people (witnesses) are interviewed by the police.


one says, "it was a black man driving a white Mustang"

a second says, "it was an arab man driving a yellow Camaro".

a third says, "it was a white woman driving a red Nova."


All have had a subjective experience of the hit and run, but their subjective experience of the hit and run does not negate the objective hit and run.


(footnote: the perpetrator was actually a heavy-set white man with bushy blonde white hair driving a diesel, maroon, smart car. )
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 11:41 AM   #30
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Why you... I oughta...
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 03:43 PM   #31
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A professional psychology view on good & evil:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-good-and-evil
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Old May 5th, 2016, 11:28 AM   #32
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more examples....



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_deaths
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Old May 5th, 2016, 11:33 AM   #33
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What about them? Would solving them make them any less dead?
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Old May 5th, 2016, 11:35 AM   #34
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What about them? Would solving them make them any less dead?
Nay, nor the perpetrators any less evil.
Just adding more evidence.
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Old May 5th, 2016, 11:37 AM   #35
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Nay, nor the perpetrators any less evil.
Just adding more evidence.

Evidence that there have been sick minds throughout the ages?

I'm sure most people already know that.
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Old May 5th, 2016, 11:38 AM   #36
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Evidence that there have been sick minds throughout the ages?

I'm sure most people already know that.


perhaps, but maybe not to the extent and gravity of the situation.
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Old May 5th, 2016, 11:58 AM   #37
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perhaps, but maybe not to the extent and gravity of the situation.
With BILLIONS of people on Earth, it is a relative handful of people.
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Old May 5th, 2016, 12:08 PM   #38
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That's not a complete list of course. That's just unsolved cases that hit wiki. many more unsolved state by state that are not so sensational. Add to that the ones that are caught.



here's a list of unsolved serial killings.



10 More Evil Serial Killers That Are Still On The Run - Listverse
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Old May 5th, 2016, 12:12 PM   #39
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Then we also haven't discussed genocide. not typically listed as individual murders, but they are murders nonetheless.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_death_toll
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Old May 5th, 2016, 12:24 PM   #40
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And what about "culturally acceptable" murder. Take the examples from the butthole of the world, Pakistan:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...191_story.html


Quote:
According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, 8,694 girls and women have died in so-called honor killings here between 2004 and 2015. Those crimes involved revenge killings for dishonoring a family, village or local custom.
Quote:
On Sunday, Punjab police arrested a man and charged him with killing his wife, who was seven months pregnant, the Express Tribune newspaper reported. Using a club, the man apparently beat the woman to death after she refused to allow him to take a second wife.


Also in Punjab over the weekend, a man tossed acid onto a 37-year-old woman, resulting in burns over 30 percent of her body. Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper reported that the woman’s nephew is the main suspect. The man apparently wanted to marry one of the woman’s daughters – his cousin — but was refused.
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