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Old July 31st, 2017, 10:11 PM   #1
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The Good Lord?

Okay....so a tornado just hit your town, destroyed massive sections and decimated your Church. Many die and were injured but....no one died in the Church.

*Father Pervator then goes on the weather channel and says, "The Good Lord Protected Us".

*Why did your "Good Lord" send you the tornado in the first place?

*Did Mrs. Johnson not pray properly?
*Does he just work in mysterious ways?
*Is he really all that GOOD?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 04:20 AM   #2
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It is weird they completely ignore what doesn't fit their agenda, and rant & rave about that which does.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 06:13 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
Okay....so a tornado just hit your town, destroyed massive sections and decimated your Church. Many die and were injured but....no one died in the Church.

*Father Pervator then goes on the weather channel and says, "The Good Lord Protected Us".

*Why did your "Good Lord" send you the tornado in the first place?

*Did Mrs. Johnson not pray properly?
*Does he just work in mysterious ways?
*Is he really all that GOOD?

Inquiring minds want to know.
I get the point you're trying to make but Yahweh is a petty, greedy and vengeful (his own words) storm god... Replace tornado with plague and your argument works better.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 10:37 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
Okay....so a tornado just hit your town, destroyed massive sections and decimated your Church. Many die and were injured but....no one died in the Church.

*Father Pervator then goes on the weather channel and says, "The Good Lord Protected Us".

*Why did your "Good Lord" send you the tornado in the first place?

*Did Mrs. Johnson not pray properly?
*Does he just work in mysterious ways?
*Is he really all that GOOD?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Furthermore...
why the tornado? why disease? why pain? why suffering?

I go with he fallen world belief. The notion that the world is not as it was intended to be.

As far as prayers, I don't like hearing people say that they prayed and God saved their life. By default that leaves Mr. Johnson to say and wonder:
"but...but...but I prayed and my wife died anyway."

Or

"I prayed and was healed!"

(that's not going to work forever, even the healed die eventually)

Maybe I'm a little fatalistic about prayers but I don't think the point is to ask for things (a wife, a new car, a healing). It can happen but it is not a given or the point.

Prayer is about communication with God. Talking to Him. Expressing what you are going through: sorrow, pain, joy, etc.

Imagine if you had a child and 100% of the communication from them to you was them asking for things. It would kind of suck, don't you think?

Last edited by arcturus88; August 1st, 2017 at 10:42 AM.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 11:06 AM   #5
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Imagine if you had a child and 100% of the communication from them to you was them asking for things. It would kind of suck, don't you think?
NOBODY is calling for 100%.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 11:14 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
Furthermore...
why the tornado? ....snip...?
Because I saw it on the weather channel this morning.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 11:21 AM   #7
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Because I saw it on the weather channel this morning.
I meant that all of those are relevant questions, not why did you post it.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 11:24 AM   #8
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I meant that all of those are relevant questions. why any of the bad stuff...
Simply because of the innate hypocrisy of the situation and religion in general.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 08:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
Furthermore...
why the tornado? why disease? why pain? why suffering?

I go with he fallen world belief. The notion that the world is not as it was intended to be.

As far as prayers, I don't like hearing people say that they prayed and God saved their life. By default that leaves Mr. Johnson to say and wonder:
"but...but...but I prayed and my wife died anyway."

Or

"I prayed and was healed!"

(that's not going to work forever, even the healed die eventually)

Maybe I'm a little fatalistic about prayers but I don't think the point is to ask for things (a wife, a new car, a healing). It can happen but it is not a given or the point.

Prayer is about communication with God. Talking to Him. Expressing what you are going through: sorrow, pain, joy, etc.

Imagine if you had a child and 100% of the communication from them to you was them asking for things. It would kind of suck, don't you think?
Not a Christian so my take might not be valid to your point. That being said...

What does a god care regarding our mundane lives? What can we, pathetic mortals, ever offer a god that they, being gods, either don't already possess or can't acquire for themselves? If a god takes pity on us or feels compelled to favor us, it's of their own volition and we're utter irrelevant. Prayer is a conversation with the gods, not a negotiation (for we have nothing to offer). If a god places value in our worship, it is recognition of our offer of respect for what it is, not NEED for worship. If a god chooses to humor us and make a deal, it'll only ever come to pass if we follow thru with our end. Praying for the winning lotto numbers will never lead to anything and promising a lifetime of service to the gods in return for restored health for a loved one will never end well unless commitment to a monastic life in genuinely offered.

Prayer for gain is the act of a fool ASKING to be smited. Prayer for communion is pious but will lead to nothing but a conversation (and likely not even that).
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 05:02 AM   #10
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Good points.
I agree with most of what is said, only in the singular, not plural.

In terms of your opening question I agree God does not need us. However, I think He desperately wants to have a relationship with something "outside" of His own essence.

This may be where free will comes into play. Like artificial intelligence, it has intriguing possibilities for relationship, but can also go horribly wrong. Free will is like that and it was a risk, God was willing to take to have relationship.

If you are polytheistic, this may not seem relevant. Many gods means they can have relationships with each other, but from a monotheistic perspective, life may get pretty lonely.

Last edited by arcturus88; August 2nd, 2017 at 05:06 AM.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 05:15 AM   #11
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Good points.
I think He desperately wants to have a relationship with something "outside" of His own essence.
But a few or even many would be enough, NOT requiring 100.0% of everybody! WHY punish for NOT being a "friend". That is inhuman and inhumane.

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This may be where free will comes into play.
So-called free will is a classic catch-22; If we had free will, it would mean there is NO GOD - period. Because if there were a God, he is all knowing, and knows 100% of every minuscule detail the future thru eternity, which means 100% of everything is PRE-PLANNED, which means "free will" is a FARSE.

So it is either/or situation; either:

(A) There is a God and NO free will.

(B) There is free will and NO God.

Either way, we cannot be held accountable for our actions (after we die).
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 06:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
Good points.
I agree with most of what is said, only in the singular, not plural.

In terms of your opening question I agree God does not need us. However, I think He desperately wants to have a relationship with something "outside" of His own essence.

This may be where free will comes into play. Like artificial intelligence, it has intriguing possibilities for relationship, but can also go horribly wrong. Free will is like that and it was a risk, God was willing to take to have relationship.

If you are polytheistic, this may not seem relevant. Many gods means they can have relationships with each other, but from a monotheistic perspective, life may get pretty lonely.
Yahweh doesn't need us to worship him, it's more of a power play. He got everyone to ignore every other god (even his own wife) and so his followers' exclusive love for him affirms to both him and his rivals that he won. If that sounds like need, it's only need in the way of addiction.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 11:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
But a few or even many would be enough, NOT requiring 100.0% of everybody! WHY punish for NOT being a "friend". That is inhuman and inhumane.
Who says however many chose are not "enough"? Perhaps he prefers all to chose but He'll get on fine with those that do.

punishment ~ natural consequence...p0tat0 ~ potAto


Quote:
So-called free will is a classic catch-22; If we had free will, it would mean there is NO GOD - period. Because if there were a God, he is all knowing, and knows 100% of every minuscule detail the future thru eternity, which means 100% of everything is PRE-PLANNED, which means "free will" is a FARSE.

So it is either/or situation; either:

(A) There is a God and NO free will.

(B) There is free will and NO God.

Either way, we cannot be held accountable for our actions (after we die
knowing everything does not = preventing or causing everything.
Thus free will is intact even with an "all-knowing" God.

I tried to deconstruct your argument using the fewest words possible.
How'd I do?
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 11:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
Who says however many chose are not "enough"? Perhaps he prefers all to chose but He'll get on fine with those that do.

punishment ~ natural consequence...p0tat0 ~ potAto


knowing everything does not = preventing or causing everything.
Thus free will is intact even with an "all-knowing" God.

I tried to deconstruct your argument using the fewest words possible.
How'd I do?
Horribly! Because if something that was going too happen is not liked and changed, you are back to original situation of no free will.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 05:07 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by arcturus88 View Post
knowing everything does not = preventing or causing everything.
Thus free will is intact even with an "all-knowing" God.

I tried to deconstruct your argument using the fewest words possible.
How'd I do?
It's also worth noting that the definition of god doesn't include omniscience. The 'free will = no god' argument would be laughed out of the room by a Shinto.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 05:22 AM   #16
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It's also worth noting that the definition of god doesn't include omniscience. The 'free will = no god' argument would be laughed out of the room by a Shinto.
Shinto must have been a doofus then.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 05:26 AM   #17
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Shinto must have been a doofus then.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 05:37 AM   #18
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Shinto must have been a doofus then.
Oh....the Irony.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 09:49 AM   #19
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Shinto is a religion, not a person. Doofus indeed.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 09:54 AM   #20
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Shinto is a religion, not a person. Doofus indeed.
When one makes an assumption about something someone is unfamiliar with, then the error is justifiable excusability - hello?!

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