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Old July 21st, 2009, 03:47 PM   #1
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Why do atheists believe in magic?

It seems like atheists want me to believe that the universe just magically appeared. This is a hillarious theory which most people laugh at. Th euniverse is just too balanced and too orderly.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:42 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by pingpong12 View Post
It seems like atheists want me to believe that the universe just magically appeared. This is a hillarious theory which most people laugh at. Th euniverse is just too balanced and too orderly.
I don't think they would believe that the universe just magically appeared. There would have to be scientific evidence for the "magic"
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Old July 26th, 2009, 03:34 AM   #3
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Talking snakes, water to wine, walking on water, seas splitting, world wide flood with subsequent disappearing of all water and proof, fitting hundreds of million species on one boat... Wait who believes in magic again?

Not to mention having an all powerful being magically come into existance and snapping his finger to create the universe.

Last edited by Delta; July 26th, 2009 at 03:36 AM.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 02:09 PM   #4
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Talking snakes, water to wine, walking on water, seas splitting, world wide flood with subsequent disappearing of all water and proof, fitting hundreds of million species on one boat... Wait who believes in magic again?

Not to mention having an all powerful being magically come into existance and snapping his finger to create the universe.
Basically this. It's the religious people who think the universe was created magically. Everyone else (hell, even some religious people) knows that it started as a singularity that then rapidly expanded at several times the speed of light (the universe itself is the only thing that can brake the Golden Rule) into it's current state. Most people, myself included, hold that the expansion hasn't stopped and will continue until the 1/2 life of every particle in the universe expires.
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Old July 30th, 2009, 10:10 AM   #5
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Basically this. It's the religious people who think the universe was created magically. Everyone else (hell, even some religious people) knows that it started as a singularity that then rapidly expanded at several times the speed of light (the universe itself is the only thing that can brake the Golden Rule) into it's current state. Most people, myself included, hold that the expansion hasn't stopped and will continue until the 1/2 life of every particle in the universe expires.
I disagree. The real truth is nobody knows, and nobody can prove where and when life started. Scientists can't prove that God does not exist, neither can theists prove scientifically that God does exist.
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Old July 31st, 2009, 07:40 AM   #6
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I disagree. The real truth is nobody knows, and nobody can prove where and when life started. Scientists can't prove that God does not exist, neither can theists prove scientifically that God does exist.
Life started when organic chemicals and acids mixed to form RNA. As RNA slowly incorporated more material, becoming DNA, and encased themselves in 'shells' they became cells and the 1st life. Some RNA din't continue on to form life and became viruses. This process can be and has been duplicated in a lab, thus proving the hypostasis's viability.

Also, I was talking about the start of the universe, not life.
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Old August 1st, 2009, 09:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Basically this. It's the religious people who think the universe was created magically. Everyone else (hell, even some religious people) knows that it started as a singularity that then rapidly expanded at several times the speed of light (the universe itself is the only thing that can brake the Golden Rule) into it's current state. Most people, myself included, hold that the expansion hasn't stopped and will continue until the 1/2 life of every particle in the universe expires.
The expansion of the universe has not stopped but some scientists are claiming evidence that the rate of expansion has slowed somewhat.

I haven't investigated these claims to their fullest extent but i would question whether the effects of time dilation have been accounted for.

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I disagree. The real truth is nobody knows, and nobody can prove where and when life started. Scientists can't prove that God does not exist, neither can theists prove scientifically that God does exist.
You are partially correct there. But logic and reasoning will bring you further in the quest of metaphysical reality, than will theology. Incidentally, it is impossible to determine which, if any, religion is the "correct" one. Organised religion lacks any logic or evidence.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 04:51 AM   #8
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I am thinking the same thing happened with my truck. Maybe all those parts over time just came together. And they all just "happened" to fit. How cool! The wind just blowing parts around and now I have a truck! Wait! Did another storm blow the pieces that make up the parts (starter, cooling system) together and made it all work! It is wonderful all the things that can happen with no input from anywhere.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 06:44 AM   #9
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I am thinking the same thing happened with my truck. Maybe all those parts over time just came together. And they all just "happened" to fit. How cool! The wind just blowing parts around and now I have a truck! Wait! Did another storm blow the pieces that make up the parts (starter, cooling system) together and made it all work! It is wonderful all the things that can happen with no input from anywhere.
Thank you for the tongue-in-cheek reference to the idea that the world came together by chance.

I think you'll find that, with more specific (and realistic ) points, there is a logical and scientifically-based principle involved, rather than vague allusions to "God".

That having been said, the Big Bang is the least known-about of all our scientific endeavours. However, there is considerable circumstancial evidence for the big bang's existence.
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Old August 6th, 2009, 01:16 AM   #10
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Also, I was talking about the start of the universe, not life.
How could anyone be able to imagine the start of the universe? Our imagination is much too limited for that. We can make some theories if we like, but that is almost as far as it can go.
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Old August 6th, 2009, 02:12 AM   #11
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How could anyone be able to imagine the start of the universe? Our imagination is much too limited for that. We can make some theories if we like, but that is almost as far as it can go.
We can use scientific proof and circumstantial evidence gathered through the Universe's existing and changing conditions to suggest strongly the nature and mechanics of the big bang. That should be enough to be getting on with until we achieve chronological displacement.
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Old August 6th, 2009, 04:21 PM   #12
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Dang. I leave for a month and miss the return of Ping Pong and a gem of a thread. .

Alright.

There's no real magic to it. In fact, science uses no magic. We just say that it happened. We just make an observation. There's no grand reason, no fancy stuff, we're just working backwards trying to explain things.

Like Dirk said, there's actually about 4 key pieces of evidence that support the Big Bang. Cool stuff actually. It also is just a mechanism. The Big Bang is how the universe spread out and did all that awesome stuff. How we got the singularity in the first place is the big question. We're working on it too.

Let's see...what else is there.

Dean - Actually our imaginations have done some really crazy stuff. Just look at some of the things with string theory, multiple universes colliding, etc. We also acknowledge that the rules of our universe just don't work after a specific point shortly after the big bang. So some people can get in the mindset...sorta makes my entire mind glaze over though.

Dodge - That's more evolution...but yeah. Things just sorta came together. It only seems special and made for us, because we are the ones it was optimum for. If it wasn't a good environment for us, then we would have died and never wondered about it in the first place.

And actually, your car is basically a result of man modeled evolution. Someone didn't just grab these mysterious parts and slap them together. That would be absurd. It's a 5,000 year long project. Someone figured out the wheel and tossed out bad models. Then different people kept working on it. Bad ideas failed, crashed, or got their inventor killed. Good ideas flourished (some got killed by random bad luck, but these were minor setbacks in the grand scheme of things). After thousands of years of trial and error, the parts finally are assembled through mankind's full knowledge. Really humbling when you think about it. No God needed for that. Why would we need a God for other mechanisms that flow the exact same way?

That said, we don't know what triggered the singularity. It also doesn't really matter. It could be God. No reason to necessarily jump to that. It could be multiple other universes rubbing against each other. We could have actually just sprang into life from something called quantum bubbling (I think). Scientists have observed small particles spring from a vacuum into existence for a brief millisecond. So...yeah. No real reason to support one over the other now. We might see some cool stuff soon. Especially if CERN finally gets their act together.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 09:31 PM   #13
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Awesome to have you back Parakeet. I just picked up on the Web a new interesting theory that there was a Universe before the Big Bang:
http://scienceline.org/2008/07/09/ph...heger-bigbang/

Quote:
Now, some scientists say that the Big Bang was not the beginning, and that there was a universe before ours. The key is a new concept of gravity, which explains how such a universe could exist without violating the laws of physics.
If correct, Martin Bojowald, main architect of the theory and Penn State physicist, will have overcome the inability to explain the early universe. This problem has left scientists, including the likes of Einstein, perplexed for years.
“In my opinion, this is the single most embarrassing problem of physics,” said Max Tegmark, an astrophysicist at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
In simple terms, Bojowald’s theory, published in August’s Nature Physics, can be described as a Big Crunch followed by a Big Bounce. He suggests there was a universe before ours that was collapsing and getting hotter (the crunch). Then, when it reached a maximum density and temperature, it was driven apart (the bounce), forming our current universe.
The main ingredient of Bojowald’s crunch-bounce theory is loop quantum gravity, a new concept that combines the traditional understanding of gravity with the quantum effect, which says that matter behaves differently at the subatomic level. Many scientists believe it is the absence of the quantum effect in equations that describe the Big Bang that lead to impossible phenomena like infinite temperature and density.
Nice photo (artist's concept) of the Big Bang

Last edited by deanhills; August 8th, 2009 at 10:22 PM.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 08:55 PM   #14
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That's a good theory. And it's just the first time that I have read it.
So does thi means our universe will end up someday and a new universe will be born again?
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:51 AM   #15
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That's a good theory. And it's just the first time that I have read it.
So does thi means our universe will end up someday and a new universe will be born again?
Right, so 2012 may be a distinct possibility then? :shy:
[COLOR=#003399]http://www.apocalypse2012.com/

Last edited by deanhills; August 18th, 2009 at 01:54 AM.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:19 AM   #16
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Right, so 2012 may be a distinct possibility then? :shy:
[COLOR=#003399]http://www.apocalypse2012.com/
Really, really, really, not.

Exactly how many times is the world/universe supposed to have ended? I remember Y2K - the millenium (2000). The world was supposed to have ended then. As well as several thousand other times in the past. We're still here, aren't we? I'm really getting sick of all this alarmist speculative crap. The world is not going to end. Not anytime soon, anyway. The Earth has existed quite happily for billions and billions of years. It will continue to do so for several more billions of years.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #17
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Don't spoil their fun Dirk (Plus Dean put in a smilie ). December 22nd, 2012 is going to be a field day for cynics and skeptics . Lots of room for laughing and "I told you so".

On a more serious note to GekiDan - We are not exactly sure. It actually could come to an end in the Big Crush. At the moment, it looks like we're a "flat" universe and that we'll expand in a fairly constant manner until eventually everything just freezes due to distance from stars.

That said, it's based off of the idea that things stay constant. It is theoretically possible for dark energy (or specifically whatever makes it up) to reverse and send us toward the Big Crush.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 04:44 AM   #18
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Well, the universe's expansion is slowing down. But you have to put "slowing down" in the context of the universe. We'll probably be long extinct by the time it gets to anywhere near stopping.

And yes, i am a bit irritated by all this "the world's going to end" Mayan stuff. And i realise Dean was kidding. But seriously, every single civilisation and religion has its own date for world apocalypse. And it's just so impossibly unlikely that it'll happen within the limited existence of our species. I know i'm the one that usually gets into all these lefty conspiracies, but only when i have EVIDENCE for them. I don't count "the Egyptians/Mayans/State-other-civilisation-here said it would happen" as viable and convincing proof.

I'm ranting, aren't i? But some people seriously believe it. Or think it a distinct possibility. In 1999, people were selling their possessions. It's ridiculous. But then again, i suppose, some people are truly convinced that there's an invisible man... up in the sky...
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Old August 19th, 2009, 10:53 AM   #19
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Well, the universe's expansion is slowing down. But you have to put "slowing down" in the context of the universe. We'll probably be long extinct by the time it gets to anywhere near stopping.

And yes, i am a bit irritated by all this "the world's going to end" Mayan stuff. And i realise Dean was kidding. But seriously, every single civilisation and religion has its own date for world apocalypse. And it's just so impossibly unlikely that it'll happen within the limited existence of our species. I know i'm the one that usually gets into all these lefty conspiracies, but only when i have EVIDENCE for them. I don't count "the Egyptians/Mayans/State-other-civilisation-here said it would happen" as viable and convincing proof.

I'm ranting, aren't i? But some people seriously believe it. Or think it a distinct possibility. In 1999, people were selling their possessions. It's ridiculous. But then again, i suppose, some people are truly convinced that there's an invisible man... up in the sky...
Meh, Dec. 21st/22nd will be an excuse to party until the 'end' comes. Maybe I'll get a few cars, houses and other such goodies on the cheep (maybe free?).
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Old August 19th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #20
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Meh, Dec. 21st/22nd will be an excuse to party until the 'end' comes. Maybe I'll get a few cars, houses and other such goodies on the cheep (maybe free?).
Free? Dream on, comrade. Dream on.
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