Insurance mandate: Should the healthy pay for irresponsibility?

myp said:

LHS?

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Local Health Service. It's basically my idea of non-state healthcare for all.

Money is just a way to make the barter system easier. If you don't like the concept of paying, then you wouldn't be for the barter system either and without that I am not sure how the world would run. Frankly, I don't think it is possible. Everyone has self interest, this is not a utopia. If you figure it out let me know

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It might get somewhere. It's very odd - like some sort of mix between tokens and social and work credits. But i'm finding some paradoxes.

Having the ability to live a healthy life is completely different than having healthcare access. A vast majority of Americans, including a vast majority of conservatives, surely believe in the right to life as described by our founding fathers and Locke. Healthcare is not the ability to live though, it is the ability to get care from trained professionals when something happens or if you have a sickness. The right to life is there by default and can only be taken away by others, the right to healthcare is not there by default and can only be given by others.

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I know. But please don't use liberty and right interchangeably.

I don't think any sane person is against a situation in which everyone has access to health care. The rift comes in when some look to the government to coerce doctors, taxpayers, and insurance companies to look after others because that in turn reduces the freedoms of said doctors, taxpayers, and insurance companies.

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The LHS would probably be run by the doctors themselves, and maybe some checks to their patients.

Dirk said:

That's the thing, it's always about money. Everybody should be able to get the treatment they need.

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Sure it comes to money. The treatment costs money. If the one being treated can't pay for materials, drugs, and time of the medical professionals. Not to mention the stay in the hospital room. Who pays for all these expenses. I think that's the real debate over the whole HC issue. We all want people to be able to get the HC they need, but I don't want anyone to cover my cost, nor should anyone expect me to cover their cost.

How do we solve this problem? I can tell you one thing it's not through the confiscation of wealth from those who have, to be redistributed by the wasteful entity known as the federal government. It can't be the sole responsibility of the rich, and corporate America.

I thought that this is what basically everyone in the United States wanted. Health care coverage for everyone. The differences are more in the way this can be achieved. The current Healthcare Reform Bill is too complicated, too lengthy, and much too expensive as well as may be interfering in the health care business of the States. The Republicans want the Bill to be rewritten. At 2000 odd pages of band-aid layer upon layer regulations, I have to agree with them. Also, possibly the States can do the medical care reform arrangements themselves without any regulation needed by the Federal Government. If the State of Massuchusetts can do it, why can't all the other States follow the same model? Why does the Federal Government have to be involved at all?

SpayAndNeuterLibs said:

Sure it comes to money. The treatment costs money. If the one being treated can't pay for materials, drugs, and time of the medical professionals. Not to mention the stay in the hospital room. Who pays for all these expenses. I think that's the real debate over the whole HC issue. We all want people to be able to get the HC they need, but I don't want anyone to cover my cost, nor should anyone expect me to cover their cost.

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Well, excuse me for caring about my fellow humankind.

You might not need it but i live in Scotland and all i can say is "thank goodness for the NHS".

deanhills said:

I thought that this is what basically everyone in the United States wanted. Health care coverage for everyone. The differences are more in the way this can be achieved. The current Healthcare Reform Bill is too complicated, too lengthy, and much too expensive as well as may be interfering in the health care business of the States. The Republicans want the Bill to be rewritten. At 2000 odd pages of band-aid layer upon layer regulations, I have to agree with them. Also, possibly the States can do the medical care reform arrangements themselves without any regulation needed by the Federal Government. If the State of Massuchusetts can do it, why can't all the other States follow the same model? Why does the Federal Government have to be involved at all?

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However you do it, ultimately, to be a useful basis for the long term, you need to demolish the current system first. Then build a foundation. Otherwise it is like building a skyscraper on top of the Empire State Building.

Dirk said:

Well, excuse me for caring about my fellow humankind.

You might not need it but i live in Scotland and all i can say is "thank goodness for the NHS".



However you do it, ultimately, to be a useful basis for the long term, you need to demolish the current system first. Then build a foundation. Otherwise it is like building a skyscraper on top of the Empire State Building.

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No excuse needed. I care too but who pays for those who can't pay for them selves?

SpayAndNeuterLibs said:

No excuse needed. I care too but who pays for those who can't pay for them selves?

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Well, ideally i wouldn't involve government, but that might require a revolution. In practical terms and as they are now, i can think of far less noble causes tax money has been spent on. To be honest, in the case of America, a government healthcare system that caters for all that require it would be far less expensive than your tax money inflating stifling corporate bureaucracy. It is about efficiency and effectiveness. The current system provides neither.

Dirk said:

Well, ideally i wouldn't involve government, but that might require a revolution. In practical terms and as they are now, i can think of far less noble causes tax money has been spent on. To be honest, in the case of America, a government healthcare system that caters for all that require it would be far less expensive than your tax money inflating stifling corporate bureaucracy. It is about efficiency and effectiveness. The current system provides neither.

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You listen to the tainted media that misleads the American people and the world. The truth is, HC is already available through the "Hippocratic Oath". Not sustained long term care but emergency care. Government in the U.S. is a wasteful entity that sets out to satisfy its hunger for wastefulness by feasting on the enormous amount of HC dollars out there. Government is the problem for the most part.

SpayAndNeuterLibs said:

You listen to the tainted media that misleads the American people and the world.

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I really think not!

Government in the U.S. is a wasteful entity that sets out to satisfy its hunger for wastefulness by feasting on the enormous amount of HC dollars out there. Government is the problem for the most part.

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Big Government vs Big Business. The conflict does not exist - they are in league with one another.

I think you presume that because i disagree with you, i am placed in the "only" other camp.

It is the Healthcare industry that is eating Government revenue (your taxes) at an exponential rate. Some wishy washy centrist like Obama isn't going to change that. Very few people in your Government have any intention of changing it.

Dirk said:

I really think not!



Big Government vs Big Business. The conflict does not exist - they are in league with one another.

I think you presume that because i disagree with you, i am placed in the "only" other camp.

It is the Healthcare industry that is eating Government revenue (your taxes) at an exponential rate. Some wishy washy centrist like Obama isn't going to change that. Very few people in your Government have any intention of changing it.

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Sure government won't change it, nor should they. You said, "It is the Healthcare industry that is eating Government revenue (your taxes) at an exponential rate." No, the extreme regulation of the HC has been the #1 cause of the increase in HC cost. Secondary would be the unwarranted HC law suits against doctors and hospitals.

RationalAltruism said:

Because many of the other states (such as Utah) aren't ever going to pass such a thing. It might be nice in theory for everything to be left to the states, but due to vast differences in opinion, it would result in significantly different treatment under the law. Also, one reason the federal government is involved is that health care coverage is very related to Medicare and Medicaid policy (which is on a federal level).

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jWell, if things can't be left to the States, then perhaps it should not be a a Federal Government any longer but a Central Government?

I however can't understand why it cannot be left to the States. If the States should decide not to have health insurance, that should be their right to decide and not for the Federal Government to dictate to them.

deanhills said:

jWell, if things can't be left to the States, then perhaps it should not be a a Federal Government any longer but a Central Government?

I however can't understand why it cannot be left to the States. If the States should decide not to have health insurance, that should be their right to decide and not for the Federal Government to dictate to them.

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It is their right. Hanse all the 10th Amendment protests by the states.

RationalAltruism said:

It's not that things can't be left to the states, it's that there will be uneven treatment across states and will be significantly affecting federal-level programs despite being in the hands of individual states.

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What then is the point of having States, if they cannot manage themselves? Should they then still qualify for being separate? Would it then not be better for everything to be managed centrally? I don't agree with that, but by your argument that seems to be the practical thing to do. For me States should provide services at the level where they can provide the services, not at the level of the States like Massachusetts at its best. Basically it looks as though the States that are not that well to do, are being given much higher living standards that they can afford at the cost of the States that are either well to do, or so much in debt and having the appearance of "well to do".

RationalAltruism said:

True; the 10th amendment is a huge restriction on federal power. However, no one pays attention to it any more; do you like the Post Office, for instance? By the 10th amendment, it's unconstitutional.

My argument doesn't depend on whether the administration and population in question is state-level or federal-level; so, for the purposes of this thread, I don't really care one way or the other. There are certain advantages and disadvantages to each strategy.

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No I don't like the post office, or Fed interference in my states economy. We didn't even join the US voluntarily and so have even few obligations then most!

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