Stephen Kiernan speaks out against D.C. politics.

Poor argument.

We have a two party system. What works most effectively if one wishes to chart a new course is to identify a party closely enough aligned in interest and infiltrate. Like the Tea Party is doing with the GOP. They'll do well as long as they don't lose defectors to the libertarians who think that is it a good idea to vote for an unelectable candidate that the adore over an electable candidate that they can tolerate. The latter results in a net gain for the electable candidate that "idealistic" voter likes least.

obtuseobserver, et al,

I believe this avoids the discussion.

(COMMENT)

Like many people in America, a growing number almost every year, there is an expanding realization that the Washington Bureaucrat is the true "Beltway Bandit." They get paid and are provided benefits for actually accomplishing very little for the nation.

There is an a very real concern that Member of Congress are not actually working in the best interest of the nation, but instead, working in the best interest of themselves and the party to which they belong. Our two-party system may be more easily managed, but it is proving to be less effective.

It is not about voting for an "unelectable" candidate, as much as it is a chior of voices saying, "you are not representing us efficiently or effectively - demonstrating honesty, integrity, loyalty, and trust." Organized crime in America is exemplified by the Republican & Democratic Party. To blindly follow a party, is to help inflect injury on the nation.

That is really what is beginning to emerge in America today, a lack of trust and confidence in the traditional parties to collaboratively work together in a patriotic way --- and for the benefit of this nation as a whole.

Most Respectfully,
R

RoccoR said:

obtuseobserver, et al,

I believe this avoids the discussion.
(COMMENT)

Like many people in America, a growing number almost every year, there is an expanding realization that the Washington Bureaucrat is the true "Beltway Bandit." They get paid and are provided benefits for actually accomplishing very little for the nation.

There is an a very real concern that Member of Congress are not actually working in the best interest of the nation, but instead, working in the best interest of themselves and the party to which they belong. Our two-party system may be more easily managed, but it is proving to be less effective.

Click to expand...

You seem to suggest that prior to today (or recently) Americans etc were not suspicious of their politicians. That's not even close to the truth. Mark Twain, Will Rogers, Jonathan Swift etc etc were exposing the very thing you're commenting on now - just a long time ago.

Two party system less effective: That's catagorically untrue. The fact is that the fewer the decision makers to more efficient the process is. The Dems with their large majorities managed to pass massive and massively unpopular legislation the last two years. They were amazingly effective. If you multiple parties you reduce efficiency because you have more cooks in the kitchen that have to agree.

RoccoR said:

It is not about voting for an "unelectable" candidate, as much as it is a chior of voices saying, "you are not representing us efficiently or effectively - demonstrating honesty, integrity, loyalty, and trust."

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Well, that is a choice to think politics is a clean and noble pursuit. There's precious little evidence to support the notion that politicians in any government at any time were angels.

RoccoR said:

Organized crime in America is exemplified by the Republican & Democratic Party. To blindly follow a party, is to help inflect injury on the nation.

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that's just cliched garbage. Give me some names and tell me how what they have done is not only criminal but part of a larger criminal enterprise.

RoccoR said:

That is really what is beginning to emerge in America today, a lack of trust and confidence in the traditional parties to collaboratively work together in a patriotic way --- and for the benefit of this nation as a whole.

Most Respectfully,
R

Click to expand...

Yeah... this is a post written through rose colored lenses.

When was this golden age of dutiful, honest and altruistic politicians you are lamenting are a thing of the past?

David said:

Adding to this, The Dems have proven the failure of the current system by pulling support from 'unelectable' candidates and giving instead to 'electable' ones. In other words, anyone supporting the DNC's stated platform is getting shafted while DINOS get funding as they're safer from TP attacks. This bowing to the loudest, richest politicians rather then the will of the people, even when it means utter betrayal, is a political cancer. You cure cancer by cutting it out.

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You too seem to think this is unique and revolutionary behavior for politicians. It isn't. To follow your example make a medical analogy they're cutting away diseased tissue to save the patient. Using party capital to fight an unwinnable fight is not a wise idea.

You may feel this is not the way things should work but you'd be silly not to recognize that this is exactly how politics works today... as it always has.

I'd ask you the same as I did of R. When was this golden age you think existed that we're moving away from now?

David said:

The parties are a relic of a bygone era of backroom deals, robber barons and black and white Party politics. In this age of grassroots activism, populist politics and anti-centralization, it is incompatible.

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Backrooms deals: that is how Senators used to be elected before the 17h amendment which called for the popular election of senators. (1913). This is how parties used to pick their horses for races before the primary system came into existence. There is a lot less of that today then in years past.

Black and white... you'll have to point to this apparent multicoloredand bi-partisan eden you think has been lost.

Grassroots... the Tea Party emerged as a grassroots populist movement but they have run as Republicans in GOP primaries. That doesn't really fit the bill of populist or grassroots once they embrace a party and their system.

Anti-centralization: What what what? The take-over of 2/3 of the American auto industry? The take over of healthcare? The bailout of the finance industry? The stimulus bill? Are you kidding me? This administration represents one of the largest centralizations of power in this history of the executive branch.

I'm open to hearing any evidence you may have to support any of your assertions but on their face they seem 180 degrees off.

obtuseobserver, et al,

Strange, you cite against me, yet make my case.

(COMMENT)

No, I make no such suggestion. My notations are not new revelations. Yes, the true integrity of the Washington Politician has been known for some time. We still make jokes about them today.

(COMMENT)

While this make sense, nothing in Congress is sensible. The history speaks for itself. Just look at the mess they have made of the nation, and look at what they are worried about.

My intent was not to suggest to increase the number of Parties, but to teardown the existing parties. If the two major parties begin to suffer, as a result of constituent dissatisfaction, then it will build a stronger nation. It certainly could do us no more harm.

(COMMENT)

Angels, no we are not looking for Angels. Are we looking for people of character, who can collaborate and build a nation that is strong, industrially, commercially, scientifically, and militarily.... yes!

Again, we need an Imhotep to invest in our infrastructure, to make the Titan among nations, economically and industrially stronger than any power on Earth. We just need patriots to do it.

• Lewis Libby (R) known as "Scooter," was Chief of Staff to Vice President Dick Cheney (R), and was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice in the Plame Affair on March 6, 2007. He was sentenced to 30 months in prison and fined $250,000. The sentence was commuted by George W. Bush (R) on July 1, 2007.[2]
• Jack Abramoff Scandal in which prominent the lobbyist with close ties to Republican administration officials and legislators, offered bribes as part of his lobbying efforts. Abramhoff was sentenced to 4 years.[3][4] See Legislative scandals.
• David Safavian (R) Administrator of Procurement Policy for the OMB, found guilty of four counts of lying and sentenced to 18 months
• Roger Stillwell (R) Staff in the Department of the Interior under George W. Bush. Pleaded guilty and received two years suspended sentence
• Steven Griles (R) former Deputy to the Secretary of the Interior pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice and was sentenced to 10 months [5]
• Italia Federici (R) staff to Secretary of Interior, obstruction of justice, four years probation
• Mark Zachares (R) staff in the Department of Labor, bribed by Abramoff, guilty of conspiracy to defraud
• Robert E. Coughlin (R) Justice Department official pleaded guilty to conflict of interest after accepting bribes from Jack Abramoff (2008)
• William Heaton (R), former chief of staff for Bob Ney (R), pleaded guilty to a federal conspiracy charge involving a golf trip to Scotland, expensive meals, and tickets to sporting events between 2002 and 2004 as payoffs for helping Abramoff's clients.
• Lester Crawford (R) Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration, resigned after 2 months. Pled guilty to conflict of interest and received 3 years suspended sentence and fined $90,000 (2006) [6]
• Sandy Berger (D) former Clinton security adviser pleads guilty to a misdemeanor charge of unlawfully removing classified documents from the National Archives in (2005) [7]
• Bernard Kerik (R) nomination in 2004 as Secretary of Homeland Security was derailed by past employment of an illegal alien as a nanny, and other improprieties. On Nov 4, 2009 he pled quilty to two counts of tax fraud and five counts of lying to the federal government(2009) [8] and was sentenced to fours years in prison.[8]
• Brian J. Doyle (R) Deputy Press Secretary in the United States Department of Homeland Security. Indicted for seducing a 14-year-old girl on the internet who was actually a sheriff's deputy. On November 17, 2006, he was sentenced to 5 years in prison, 10 years of probation, and was registered as a sex offender.[9]
• Ted Stevens Senator (R-Alaska) convicted on seven counts of bribery and tax evasion October 27, 2008 just prior to the election. He continued his run for re-election, but lost. Once the Republican was defeated in his re-election, new Attorney General Eric Holder (D) dismissed the charges "in the interest of justice" stating that the Justice Department had illegally withheld evidence from defense counsel.[10]
• Charles Rangel (D-New York) failed to report $75,000 income from the rental of his villa in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic and was forced to pay $11,000 in back taxes.(September 2008)[11]
• Rick Renzi (R-Arizona) Announced he would not seek another term in office. Seven months later, on February 22, 2008 he pleaded not guilty to 35 charges of fraud, conspiracy and money laundering.[12]
• Jack Abramoff Scandal, (R) lobbyist found guilty of conspiracy, tax evasion and corruption of public officials in three different courts in a wide ranging investigation. Currently serving 70 months and fined $24.7 million.[13] See Scandals, Executive Branch. The following were also implicated:
• James W. Ellis (R) ran Tom DeLay's (R-Texas) PAC, indicted
• John D. Calyandro (R) runs Texans for a Republican Majority, indicted
• Adam Kidon business partner of Abramoff, pleaded guilty to fraud, sentenced to 70 months
• Michael Scanlon (R) former staff to Tom DeLay: while working for Abramoff, pleaded guilty to bribery
• Tony Rudy (R) former staff to Tom DeLay, pleaded guilty to conspiracy
• Robert Ney (R-Ohio) bribed by Abramoff, pleaded guilty to conspiracy, sentenced to 30 months.
• Neil Volz (R) former staff to Robert Ney, pleaded guilty to conspiracy
• William Heaton (R) former staff to Robert Ney, pleaded guilty to fraud, 24 months probation
• John Albaugh (R) former COS to Ernest Istook (R-OK) pled guilty
• Robert E. Coughlin (R) Deputy Chief of Staff, Criminal Division, Justice Department, pled guilty to accepting bribes.[14]
• Duke Cunningham (R-California) pleaded guilty on November 28, 2005 to charges of conspiracy to commit bribery, mail fraud, wire fraud and tax evasion in what came to be called the Cunningham scandal. Sentenced to over eight years.
• Kyle Foggo CIA Exec. Director, number 3 in the agency, was indicted February 13, 2007 on charges of fraud, money laundering, conspiracy. Plea bargained to one count of fraud.
• William J. Jefferson (D-Louisiana) in August 2005 the FBI seized $90,000 in cash from Jefferson's home freezer. He was re-elected anyway, but lost in 2008. He was convicted of 11 counts of bribery and sentenced to 13 years on November 13, 2009.[15]
• Brett Pfeffer (D) William Jefferson's Chief of Staff was sentenced to 84 months for bribery. (2006) [16]
• Bill Janklow (R-South Dakota) convicted of second-degree manslaughter for running a stop sign and killing a motorcyclist. Resigned from the House and given 100 days in the county jail and three years probation. (2003)[17]
• Jim Traficant (D-Ohio) found guilty on 10 felony counts of financial corruption, he was sentenced to 8 years in prison and expelled from the House (2002) [18]
• Vito Fossella (R-New York) ? US Congressman arrested for drunk driving, Fossella admitted to having an affair with Laura Fay, with whom he has a three-year-old daughter. He is currently married to Mary Patricia n?e Rowan with whom he has three children. (2008)[19]
• Larry Craig (R-Idaho) ? US Senator who pled guilty to disorderly conduct in a Minneapolis airport men's room in June, after having been arrested on a charge of homosexual lewd conduct. Governor Craig had previously stated that "people already know that Bill Clinton is a bad boy ? a naughty boy." (2007) [20]

And this list goes -on and on... and doesn't really change until you get back to the Carter Administration.


I have watched these Princes and Princesses prance around like they are a notch above the common citizen. But they are not. And we shouldn't treat them that way. As the nation suffers, so should they. We should systematically reduce the tribute paid to them as they decline in performance.

(COMMENT)

We are not that far apart. But I still believe in our country and its ability to clean itself-up and lay a new foundation. You seem to have lost hope, and that any advocate for change is delusional.

There are still men and women of this nation that have honesty, integrity, and character.

Most Respectfully,
R

RoccoR said:

obtuseobserver, et al,

Strange, you cite against me, yet make my case.

Click to expand...

Well, if we agree that's not a tragedy. I read your comments to suggest you thought politicians were getting sleazier. Upon rereading you were saying people are more aware of that. I agree.

RoccoR said:

While this make sense, nothing in Congress is sensible. The history speaks for itself. Just look at the mess they have made of the nation, and look at what they are worried about.

Click to expand...

But the Congress achieved its stated goals in passing the legislation they said they woiuld pass. That is effective.

You're noting your disagreement with those accomplished goals; a different issue. I'd frame it like this... they were very effective at passing legislation I think is terrible for the country.

Messes: the current ones do impress even with regard to the historical record.

RoccoR said:

My intent was not to suggest to increase the number of Parties, but to teardown the existing parties. If the two major parties begin to suffer, as a result of constituent dissatisfaction, then it will build a stronger nation. It certainly could do us no more harm.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Even more than nature, power abhors a vaccuum. One can go either way here I suspect when the options can be reduced to the devil you know or don't know. I'm a bit less cynical on this point than you but there certainly is plenty of cause for your position.

RoccoR said:

Angels, no we are not looking for Angels. Are we looking for people of character, who can collaborate and build a nation that is strong, industrially, commercially, scientifically, and militarily.... yes!

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Angels... lol.. yeah, apparently we're now on to devils ;-)

Politics goes through cycles. As you note, currently we are in a phase where politics and politicians are generally looked upon with contempt. Why would honest and decent men wish to enter that arena?

Now, that's of course rhetorical. We do have decent and honest people entering. Many of them veterans (a feature that quite often eliminates any concern over party affiliation for me). Perhaps the wheel is turning? In any event that's one thing that does give me hope and some degree of optimism.

RoccoR said:

Again, we need an Imhotep to invest in our infrastructure, to make the Titan among nations, economically and industrially stronger than any power on Earth. We just need patriots to do it.

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Imhotep was a high official of a despotic state. Many have argued for the efficiency of absolutism and for thousands of years. You are aware of the inherent risks. Philosopher kings don't exist. Enlightened despotism sounds nice but Catherine still had serfs and Joseph II's serfs may have faired better but the dude certainly pursued expansionist policy through military conquest. He was not terribly unique in that but this is hardly the stuff of a utopian society.

Just a thought... not a very deeply considered one but perhaps Marshall could be compared to him?

RoccoR said:

And this list goes -on and on... and doesn't really change until you get back to the Carter Administration.

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lol - I disagree with your characterization as organized crime (for reasons not least of which include how poorly the pull off their crimes) but certainly have no issue with the larger point of corruption.

RoccoR said:

I have watched these Princes and Princesses prance around like they are a notch above the common citizen. But they are not. And we shouldn't treat them that way. As the nation suffers, so should they. We should systematically reduce the tribute paid to them as they decline in performance.

Click to expand...

There certainly are those worthy of our contempt. However, there really are some good men in DC. Too bad they are over shadowed by the creeps.

RoccoR said:

We are not that far apart. But I still believe in our country and its ability to clean itself-up and lay a new foundation. You seem to have lost hope, and that any advocate for change is delusional.

There are still men and women of this nation that have honesty, integrity, and character.

Most Respectfully,
R

Click to expand...

No, actually quite the contrary. I agree with your comments in that paragraph completely. I think the only disagreement would be how to achieve that positive change. I suspect that fundamental disagreement (which may in degree be quite small at the end of the day) probably answers any other disagreements.

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