Your children

Aug 2010
123
0
Would you have a child knowing before it was even created, that it would fail and disappoint you? Could you then tell your child "You must follow me or I will allow you to go to hell!" even though you have the power to prevent that?
Maybe so, but I can't even imagine setting up my son for failure, then allowing him to go to hell when I had ever possible way to prevent it.
Not only is that emotionally and morally irresponsible, it's socially unacceptable and would likely land me in jail or worse.
How then, would I have the nerve to command you to worship me?!?
Sounds ridiculous, yet the bible indicates this same situation, and people still want to worship this (invisible/dead) god. What's worse, people do.
Christians would disagree with this whole concept no doubt. To those who worship this dead god, how do you reconcile the fact that your dead god knew his creation would fall/sin, that some of them would go to hell, yet still worship it?
 
Aug 2010
862
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Yes, you don't undertstand God. You keep telling us that. You then claim that lack of understanding as reasonable basis to reject God. OK. Why do you need to keep telling us this?

The question you ask is ancient, though usually presented politely as a logic problem rather than viciously as though you've been persoanlly cheated by God. It is called colloquially The Problem of Evil. Leibniz amongst others address this issue at great length. His work is called Theodicy. If you are truly interested in the question that's a good place to start. If you're trying to present people of faith will some sort of challenge that will send them running in horor because you've unmasked God and shattered thier belief you'll have to try an awful lot harder. Those are questions we started addressing in my church when I was eleven.
 
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Aug 2010
123
0
Yes, you don't undertstand God.
No one understands this god of yours. There are many reasons: 1) because everyone has their own definition of this god, 2) because this god of yours is made up and therefore, free of definition/understanding/logic and/or 3) both of the previous reasons.
So if no one understand it, why
do people insist on worshiping it? It's it simple hope? What is there to hope for? Is it fear? What is it to fear?
The question you ask is ancient, though usually presented politely as a logic problem rather than viciously as though you've been persoanlly (personally) cheated by God.
Ancient with still no answer. There is no cheating by a entity that doesn't exist as the bible indicate.
What you see as not being polite (which is beyond irrelevant) is actually the lack of respect. Which is earned. Your invisible god has earned no respect from me, neither have most of its followers that I have had the pleasure to meet. You seem to feel like it's not being polite because you want to protect something that feel dear to you - the same thing I wouldn't "go" on if it were on fire.

But to the people who liken this invisible personified belief system to a parent/child relationship, how do you justify the fact that the parent created its children, setting them up to fail, knowing which ones will fail, then acting all concerned about it?
Could you do that to your child?
 
Aug 2010
862
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No one understands this god of yours.

Quite probably true. But this is not a point in controvesy. No one can understand the mind of God.

There are many reasons: 1) because everyone has their own definition of this god, 2) because this god of yours is made up and therefore, free of definition/understanding/logic and/or 3) both of the previous reasons.

Well, in order for this to matter one must presume God exists. If one does not then there is no reason, as you claimed elsewhere, to discuss this.

So, starting with the presumption that God exists the bests reason for our inability to understand the mind of God is because God is God and we are not.

So if no one understand it, why do people insist on worshiping it? It's it simple hope? What is there to hope for? Is it fear? What is it to fear?

I cannot answer for anyone but myself but I'd think my reasons are probably widely shared. I am unaware of any civilization or culture that had no belief in God or Gods. For those who believe this is very commonly just a recognition of what we believe exists. It isn't complicated in that regard.

Ancient with still no answer.

Did you read any of the authors who have written extensively on this subject you keep harping on? No. You're relying on yourself to have greater insight into this problem than some of the greatest philosophers in human history.

As in the last thread, perhaps you should read up on these topics to understand how long this has been debated and what many brilliant people have had to say about it. But you won't. Why? You are not intellectually curious about this topic. What you hope to accomplish is ridicule of people of faith. However, what you reveal is your own overdrawn fund of knowledge and malicious motive.

There is no cheating by a entity that doesn't exist as the bible indicate.

nary a clue what you meant by that ^

What you see as not being polite (which is beyond irrelevant) is actually the lack of respect. Which is earned.

lol... don't parse words you struggle to understand

Your invisible god has earned no respect from me, neither have most of its followers that I have had the pleasure to meet.

OK. It is still not polite to be disrespectful to them. By virtue of your argument they have every reason to treat you disrespectfully. Do you really want to go with that notion or do you think it might be a poor choice?

You seem to feel like it's not being polite because you want to protect something that feel dear to you - the same thing I wouldn't "go" on if it were on fire.

No, that polite remark resulted from another thread that had descended into a lot of sniping. I was offering to discuss the issue politely.

It is silly to suggest I am trying to protect God.

But to the people who liken this invisible personified belief system to a parent/child relationship, how do you justify the fact that the parent created its children, setting them up to fail, knowing which ones will fail, then acting all concerned about it?

Again, there exists voluminous scholarship on the topic. Feel free to investigate if you wish. As above, we know you won't and we know why.

Could you do that to your child?

I have children. Do you?

Do I watch my children and let them get into a mess that I could have prevented? Yes, all the time. Why? That's how we learn not to do stupid things.

But to your point abouit God. Here again you are suggesting that it is reasonable to understand the mind of God; or rather, that when things (failings) we do not understand occur we can conclude God does not exist or if he does he is malicious. That's not a very good argument. It is a belief based on just as little evidence as the belief that God does exist and is good. The difference is that I know that my belief is just that whereas you think you've settled upon some new and clever logical proof that makes God go away. You haven't. If you really are intellectually curious start reading. If you simply wish to ridicule belief in God take a number and join the line of pompous self-important know-it-alls and discuss how stupid everyone else is.
 
Aug 2011
15
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Quite probably true. But this is not a point in controvesy. No one can understand the mind of God.



Well, in order for this to matter one must presume God exists. If one does not then there is no reason, as you claimed elsewhere, to discuss this.

So, starting with the presumption that God exists the bests reason for our inability to understand the mind of God is because God is God and we are not.



I cannot answer for anyone but myself but I'd think my reasons are probably widely shared. I am unaware of any civilization or culture that had no belief in God or Gods. For those who believe this is very commonly just a recognition of what we believe exists. It isn't complicated in that regard.



Did you read any of the authors who have written extensively on this subject you keep harping on? No. You're relying on yourself to have greater insight into this problem than some of the greatest philosophers in human history.

As in the last thread, perhaps you should read up on these topics to understand how long this has been debated and what many brilliant people have had to say about it. But you won't. Why? You are not intellectually curious about this topic. What you hope to accomplish is ridicule of people of faith. However, what you reveal is your own overdrawn fund of knowledge and malicious motive.



nary a clue what you meant by that ^



lol... don't parse words you struggle to understand



OK. It is still not polite to be disrespectful to them. By virtue of your argument they have every reason to treat you disrespectfully. Do you really want to go with that notion or do you think it might be a poor choice?



No, that polite remark resulted from another thread that had descended into a lot of sniping. I was offering to discuss the issue politely.

It is silly to suggest I am trying to protect God.



Again, there exists voluminous scholarship on the topic. Feel free to investigate if you wish. As above, we know you won't and we know why.



I have children. Do you?

Do I watch my children and let them get into a mess that I could have prevented? Yes, all the time. Why? That's how we learn not to do stupid things.

But to your point abouit God. Here again you are suggesting that it is reasonable to understand the mind of God; or rather, that when things (failings) we do not understand occur we can conclude God does not exist or if he does he is malicious. That's not a very good argument. It is a belief based on just as little evidence as the belief that God does exist and is good. The difference is that I know that my belief is just that whereas you think you've settled upon some new and clever logical proof that makes God go away. You haven't. If you really are intellectually curious start reading. If you simply wish to ridicule belief in God take a number and join the line of pompous self-important know-it-alls and discuss how stupid everyone else is.


Quite a good series of answers told in this post. As far as I think for the thread, it solely depends on our belief in GOD for assuming whatever happens is by HIS wish and will. If you really need exact clarification of your question then it would take decades to believe that there are many questions that you cannot answer if you don't believe in GOD.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
Firstb of all the christian God lives, I don't think you will understand anything without understanding that. But I will try.

All sinners don't go to hell, in fact jesus identifide himself strictly with sinners, and said beyond that that non sinners have no need of him, and he was dead on right in that statement if you do not need salvation, what would you need a savior for.

And yes parnts bring children into this world every day and cannot control them, if you had a kid who is now an adult you would know that. I would think a child that allowed his parents to control his evry action would be dead before he made it to 21, that is lack of free will and what is free will but existance as we know it. The only way you could control your childs fate is to have a catatonic child, doing that to a kid would land you in jail.

The parent is a guiding voice of wisdom as is God, he is not a ruler who commands people and they obay, those gods don't last long
 
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