Affirmative Action

omej

Founding Father
Jan 9, 2013
316
1
Delaware
#1
What is your opinion on affirmative action?

Honestly, im on the fence for this one. It has two sides. To support it, one can make the argument that no matter how hard a minority works, they cannot do anything about their skin color (or gender). They can work equally has hard as a white man and still be passed over for that reason.

However, on the flip side, of course those that do not benefit from affirmative action will resent it. But there is a common perception about it. Many people think affirmative action is based on simply getting somebody for being black or being a woman. That is not at all the case and has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. AA applies when you have candidate A and candidate B who have nearly identical qualifications (college or job). If there is a disproportionate amount of candidate A to B, than it is likely B will be given more priority.

Of course, no system is perfect. Perhaps sometime in the future we can basic it more so on economic conditions as opposed to race.

What are your opinions on the matter?
 

The Parakeet

Retired Moderator
Jan 19, 2009
639
2
#2
I'm against it on principle alone. I just went through the college application process last year so it's fresh in my mind. I worked my butt off to get good grades and get into a good college. Mine doesn't really have any true policy on diversity and there really aren't any people here who got in because of some plan. That's really nice. We're all on equal ground and respect each other.

Affirmative action only spurs on further racism. I know it triggers it in me if I'm being honest with myself. Any type of diversity does that though. Just pick the best people and let it be. The whole "equal applications" thing never really happens. I honestly don't know of a single situation where it would actually come into play. It's just an excuse.
 
Mar 4, 2009
159
2
North Carolina
#3
I'm against it on principle alone. I just went through the college application process last year so it's fresh in my mind. I worked my butt off to get good grades and get into a good college. Mine doesn't really have any true policy on diversity and there really aren't any people here who got in because of some plan. That's really nice. We're all on equal ground and respect each other.

Affirmative action only spurs on further racism. I know it triggers it in me if I'm being honest with myself. Any type of diversity does that though. Just pick the best people and let it be. The whole "equal applications" thing never really happens. I honestly don't know of a single situation where it would actually come into play. It's just an excuse.
As odd as it sounds, I got a check from my college because I was white. I went to a primarily African-American University and as a result I was actually in the minority, which entitled me for a scholarship. Although is was nice, I, like you, went through the system on my grades. Even without that extra cash, my grades were always good enough for regular scholarships and such. I even had an Art Foundation sponsor me one year.

But as far as affirmative action goes I'm on the fence. I've lived in the south now for a while and if people are saying racism is over, they are disillusioned. Sad fact is in SOME places Affirmative action is almost necessary. BUt I also believe that an employer should hire the best person for the just, not because they need an Asian now because Mrs. Chang quit last week. (Then again... if they are hiring Asians, they probably are getting the best person... lol)
 

omej

Founding Father
Jan 9, 2013
316
1
Delaware
#4
I'm against it on principle alone. I just went through the college application process last year so it's fresh in my mind. I worked my butt off to get good grades and get into a good college. Mine doesn't really have any true policy on diversity and there really aren't any people here who got in because of some plan. That's really nice. We're all on equal ground and respect each other.
That's a valid point and of course falls in line with the people who don't need it don't want it. I'm curious, are you white? I actually know black people who also resent it because they believe that it lessons the power of their legitimately earned degree. Justice Thomas of the Supreme Court opposes AA for that very reason, he believes his hard earned Yale degree.

Affirmative action only spurs on further racism. I know it triggers it in me if I'm being honest with myself. Any type of diversity does that though. Just pick the best people and let it be. The whole "equal applications" thing never really happens. I honestly don't know of a single situation where it would actually come into play. It's just an excuse.
Again that is a good point. It reminds people that there are indeed differences in race and gender. But there are people who are racist and judgmental, no matter how difficult it is to prove.

Glee said:
As odd as it sounds, I got a check from my college because I was white. I went to a primarily African-American University and as a result I was actually in the minority, which entitled me for a scholarship. Although is was nice, I, like you, went through the system on my grades. Even without that extra cash, my grades were always good enough for regular scholarships and such. I even had an Art Foundation sponsor me one year.
You hit a big point on this one. Think about in 20-30 years from now. White people will actually be the minority. And unless racism goes away by then (yeah right), white people will be the ones demanding/getting affirmative action.
 

The Parakeet

Retired Moderator
Jan 19, 2009
639
2
#5
Well, I'm just your standard Irish/English guy. According to most of the racial social science people, I've lived a charmed life. Well...insert some of your favorite curse words here to that sentiment.

The battle against racism is fought at the margins. We will probably never break through to the diehards, but we can to the people on the fence. Things like affirmative action just hurt the mending.

Take a look at what happened in the video game world. A few people started saying that Resident Evil 5 was racist. Their reasoning was that they had the player killing a bunch of black zombies and there was an image of a black zombie dragging a white woman away. They failed to mention that the game was set in Africa. The following debates spurred a lot of angry at the small vocal minority of the African American community that was speaking against it. This applies to a lot of situation and not just racial ones. Look at some of the anger towards vegans and vegetarians because of PETA's antics.

You do not want to anger the people at the margins. Just keep things fair and let time heal the wounds. Penn and Teller talked about this in their sensitivity episode. Anytime a corporation had mandatory seminars on racial sensitivity, the proportion of minorities they hired dropped. It awakened worries in the back of managements mind that they might have legal problems if they weren't sensitive enough, so they think they subconsciously hired more white people to avoid any problems.
 

deanhills

Secretary of State
Mar 15, 2009
2,187
2
#6
I'm originally from South Africa, quite a number of years ago, and born white, and because I was born white was born a racist, whether I was one or not. So had to go through that for many years until 1997 when the ANC took over. All of it has now gone into reverse of course as when you are born White these days your are automatically born a minority and discriminated against. All Government jobs are presently earmarked for Blacks only, and not necessarily black people with good qualifications, but Black people "deserving through their association with the ANC and reward for long struggles as party members".

I am in favour of Affirmative Action when the two are seriously out of balance. I.e. at the time when I was born in the country, the balance was completely out of whack. At the time when the ANC took over, the pendulum sort of was in the middle, but right now it has swung completely to the other side with real negative implications for the healh of the economy, productivity, future of South Africa.

Note: I emigrated from South Africa to Canada many years ago and have been living and working as an expat in the Middle East for almost 8 years. Am just about ready to make a move in the next year or so and am exploring options. :shy:
 
Mar 18, 2009
9
0
#7
My opinion

I think there does need to be a correct ratio of certain structure types in order to keep the human ecosystem happy with its own surroundings. You know very well this has nothing to do with skin color, it has to do with size of body structure. Weight, and height and aptitude to perform certain tasks are actual solid hypothetical and real life issues that if solved can serve some purpose of furthering a greater efficiency of work.

That and people have to stay happy. If there is a even mix of bodily size structures whatever the race may be, things get along smoother. It just HAPPENS, that race and heritage play a role in average more often than not physical size structure.

I am sure thats the real issue of affirmative action, in a nutshell.
 

deanhills

Secretary of State
Mar 15, 2009
2,187
2
#8
I think there does need to be a correct ratio of certain structure types in order to keep the human ecosystem happy with its own surroundings. You know very well this has nothing to do with skin color, it has to do with size of body structure. Weight, and height and aptitude to perform certain tasks are actual solid hypothetical and real life issues that if solved can serve some purpose of furthering a greater efficiency of work.

That and people have to stay happy. If there is a even mix of bodily size structures whatever the race may be, things get along smoother. It just HAPPENS, that race and heritage play a role in average more often than not physical size structure.

I am sure thats the real issue of affirmative action, in a nutshell.
Well put. Race and heritage seem to dominate everywhere, although one has to say the World has made tremendous progress over the last decade. Perhaps Race and heritage come first and the way we look is also important. People have stereotype templates for body structure, looks and dress, all of which can make people unhappy as well if they do not fit the stereotype expectation.
 
Mar 21, 2009
5
0
#9
I think i will support the affirmative action. Yes, that's right that how hard the minority work, they can't change their skin color and gender. White people and black people must have same position if they have the same qualification and the same skill. But, as we know, race discrimination are eternal from centuries ago until now. I have no idea how to erase race discrimination from this world, and all we can do is just support the minority.
 
Mar 15, 2009
422
3
Florida, USA
#10
Well, when I was young, back in the dark ages, affirmative action was absolutely necessary. I was a computer programmer, female, and I had to look for jobs in newspapers under the heading 'Male Help Wanted' because the 'Female Help Wanted' section only had jobs for sales clerks, secretaries, and nurses. I was told to my face that 'of course you're paid less than the man you are training. You're a woman.' As things improved, and there were more women programmers, I worked for an organization with about 300 people in it, half of them women, and not a single female manager in the group. At one time I worked for the first black person the organization had hired. They gave him an office in a closet so they could hide him. I know someone who's rejection letter from law school said flat out that they weren't accepting her because she was a married female. In a meeting, I watched two young guys with undergraduate degrees in accounting tell one of the women present that the would take care of the financial part of the project, because she wouldn't understand it. The woman had a PhD in finance from Wharton (in case you don't know, Wharton School of Finance is the best in the country).

Affirmitive action programs forced companies to interview, hire, and promote minorities and women. From what I saw during my life, the white male establishment fought this so hard that there were virtually no unqualified people being pushed forward.

The problem is that if an affirmative action program is successful, at some point it becomes a detriment to those it was supposed to help, as their real capabilities are discounted because it is assumed they were getting preferential treatment.
 

deanhills

Secretary of State
Mar 15, 2009
2,187
2
#11
The problem is that if an affirmative action program is successful, at some point it becomes a detriment to those it was supposed to help, as their real capabilities are discounted because it is assumed they were getting preferential treatment.
That is so true. That is happening in South Africa right now as well, as there are many gifted black people who worked dahm hard to get to be specialists like they are, and have to witness favouritism that works completely counter-productive, i.e. they are forced to use that manpower when they would have preferred people who are better qualified.
 

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