Your thoughts on the Crusades?

Mar 24, 2013
44
21
Arkansas
Hello everyone! Sir. Charles Wellington III here with an amazing thread again. Either way, what is your opinion on the Holy Crusades?

I have studied the Crusades quite extensively, and know quite a bit about them, the events, and the people involved, but how do you feel about them? Were they Justified?

My thoughts: Yes they were justified, and I believe the Pope had every right to initiate a call to arms from the reaches of Christendom - as the Byzantine Empire was under constant attack from Islam.
Wars go on for money usually. I am just glad the meeting of east and west gave us great art. :)
 
Mar 5, 2011
746
159
Rhondda, Cymru
So why aren't they 600 years ahead of us now instead of 700 years behind?

Speculation on this is an interesting mind game, but there are more factors involved than simply whether or not one side won a war or a battle.
Europe got rich and colonised them, obviously. Why did the Indian cotton industry not develop? There are other, internal reasons too, of course, but colonialism explains most things pretty well, I think.
 
Aug 9, 2012
311
41
North Texas
Europe got rich and colonised them, obviously.
So it's all Europe's fault? The Islamics had no say or responsibility in the matter?

I disagree. So do historians:

History of Science and Technology in Islam
FACTORS BEHIND THE DECLINE OF ISLAMIC SCIENCE AFTER THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY

At the time when scientific communities in Europe were on the increase, all the regions of Islam were witnessing the decline of science and of scientific communities. This phenomenon is discussed by Ibn Khaldūn in more than one chapter in his Introduction (al-Muqaddima).[3] He discusses the factors which are essential to the flourishing of the sciences and the other professions, and the factors which lead to their decline. One chapter carries the title: `That the Professions are Perfected and Become Plenty when the Demand for them Increases.' [4] He says that if a profession is in great demand, people will try to learn it, whereas if there is no demand for a profession it will be neglected and will disappear. `There is here another secret, and it is that the professions and their perfection are demanded by the state, which is the greatest marketplace for the professions', and the needs of the state are so great that the demands of private individuals are too small in comparison, which means that when the state declines all professions decline as well. Another chapter carries the title: `That Regions which Approach a Ruinous State will Become Devoid of the Professions.' [5] When a region becomes weakened, loses its affluence, and its population decreases, the professions will diminish, because they can no longer be afforded, until they finally disappear. He devotes a special chapter to the sciences under the title: `That the Sciences Increase with the Increase in Prosperity and with the Greatness of Civilization in a Region.' [6] After a dis*cussion of his theory he says: `Let us consider what we have known about conditions in Baghdad, Cordoba, al-Qairawan, al-Basra, and al-Kufa. When these cities became populous and prosperous in the first centuries of Islam and civilization became established in them, the seas of science rose and overflowed and scientists marvelled in the terminology and the technicalities of learning and of the various sciences, and in devising various problems and theories until they excelled over the ancients and surpassed those who came after. But when the prosperity of these cities and their civilization decreased and when their population was dispersed, that carpet, with all that was on it, was completely folded and science and learning were lost in them and moved to other regions of Islam.' In discussing the rational sciences, Ibn Khaldūn gives the same analysis, and he remarks that when the empire became established, and when Islamic civilization surpassed all others, Muslims studied eagerly the rational sciences of the ancients until they excelled over them. He remarks that during his time (the second half of the fourteenth century), the rational sci*ences in the Maghrib and in al-Andalus were diminishing because prosperity in these regions was at a low level, whereas in the Eastern regions of Islam, especially in Persia and beyond to Transoxania, the rational sciences were flourishing because of the prosperity of these regions and the stability of their civilization. Ibn Khaldūn was aware also that during his time, the rational sciences in Rome, and in Europe in general, were in great demand, and that there existed in these countries active scientific communities. [7]

The ideas of Ibn Khaldun are repeated by modern scholars. Thus Bernal in his book Science in History [8] repeats in a similar argument that `Science's flourishing periods are found to coincide with economic activity and technical advance. The track science had followed - from Egypt and Mesopotamia to Greece, from Islamic Spain to Renaissance Italy, thence to the Low Countries and France, and then to Scotland and England of the Industrial Revolution - is the same as that of commerce and industry. Between the bursts of activity there have been quiet times, sometimes periods of degeneration. These co*incide with periods when the organization of society was stagnant or deca*dent.'
 
Mar 5, 2011
746
159
Rhondda, Cymru
So it's all Europe's fault? The Islamics had no say or responsibility in the matter?

I disagree. So do historians:

History of Science and Technology in Islam
FACTORS BEHIND THE DECLINE OF ISLAMIC SCIENCE AFTER THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY

At the time when scientific communities in Europe were on the increase, all the regions of Islam were witnessing the decline of science and of scientific communities. This phenomenon is discussed by Ibn Khaldūn in more than one chapter in his Introduction (al-Muqaddima).[3] He discusses the factors which are essential to the flourishing of the sciences and the other professions, and the factors which lead to their decline. One chapter carries the title: `That the Professions are Perfected and Become Plenty when the Demand for them Increases.' [4] He says that if a profession is in great demand, people will try to learn it, whereas if there is no demand for a profession it will be neglected and will disappear. `There is here another secret, and it is that the professions and their perfection are demanded by the state, which is the greatest marketplace for the professions', and the needs of the state are so great that the demands of private individuals are too small in comparison, which means that when the state declines all professions decline as well. Another chapter carries the title: `That Regions which Approach a Ruinous State will Become Devoid of the Professions.' [5] When a region becomes weakened, loses its affluence, and its population decreases, the professions will diminish, because they can no longer be afforded, until they finally disappear. He devotes a special chapter to the sciences under the title: `That the Sciences Increase with the Increase in Prosperity and with the Greatness of Civilization in a Region.' [6] After a dis*cussion of his theory he says: `Let us consider what we have known about conditions in Baghdad, Cordoba, al-Qairawan, al-Basra, and al-Kufa. When these cities became populous and prosperous in the first centuries of Islam and civilization became established in them, the seas of science rose and overflowed and scientists marvelled in the terminology and the technicalities of learning and of the various sciences, and in devising various problems and theories until they excelled over the ancients and surpassed those who came after. But when the prosperity of these cities and their civilization decreased and when their population was dispersed, that carpet, with all that was on it, was completely folded and science and learning were lost in them and moved to other regions of Islam.' In discussing the rational sciences, Ibn Khaldūn gives the same analysis, and he remarks that when the empire became established, and when Islamic civilization surpassed all others, Muslims studied eagerly the rational sciences of the ancients until they excelled over them. He remarks that during his time (the second half of the fourteenth century), the rational sci*ences in the Maghrib and in al-Andalus were diminishing because prosperity in these regions was at a low level, whereas in the Eastern regions of Islam, especially in Persia and beyond to Transoxania, the rational sciences were flourishing because of the prosperity of these regions and the stability of their civilization. Ibn Khaldūn was aware also that during his time, the rational sciences in Rome, and in Europe in general, were in great demand, and that there existed in these countries active scientific communities. [7]

The ideas of Ibn Khaldun are repeated by modern scholars. Thus Bernal in his book Science in History [8] repeats in a similar argument that `Science's flourishing periods are found to coincide with economic activity and technical advance. The track science had followed - from Egypt and Mesopotamia to Greece, from Islamic Spain to Renaissance Italy, thence to the Low Countries and France, and then to Scotland and England of the Industrial Revolution - is the same as that of commerce and industry. Between the bursts of activity there have been quiet times, sometimes periods of degeneration. These co*incide with periods when the organization of society was stagnant or deca*dent.'
I'm not into 'faults'. Islamic society suffered various stresses and foreign invasions and, like the Chinese - and the Greeks, come to that - tended not to go into the practical possibilities thrown up by science. The development of world capitalism starting in various parts of Europe, backed by stolen capital, tended to destroy the possibility of other societies advancing, as is now closing the door on all intelligent human advances. It is the nature of the beast - boom and bust, roar and rot!
 
Likes: 1 person
Nov 24, 2016
1,376
283
Victoria, BC
'
I have always been disgusted by the Crusades, but especially disgusted by the Fourth Crusade, which in 1204 (a date that will live in infamy) stormed and ravaged Constantinople, Christian bulwark against Turkish invasion of Eastern Europe.

The Byzantine Empire never recovered from that base betrayal by their so-called "Christian" "allies." Hundreds of years of Ottoman corruption blighted the history of Eastern Europe and threatened areas of western Europe also.

Also, priceless works of Greek art and literature were lost is the chaos that attended the Fourth Crusade and its aftermath --- we would still have all the poetry of Sappho, for instance!

The Venetians were the prime movers in betraying the Eastern Roman Empire, and that is why I could never visit Venice. It would evoke too much anger and sorrow to be reminded of the titanic evils which that horrid city has wrought.

To look on the "Lions of Saint Mark" would be to remember that they were looted from Constantinople.
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