Mosque proposal near Ground Zero

[White Rabbit]

This issue is by far the most dishonest political issue I've seen in a long time.

Three facts seem to be constantly and consistently overlooked by massive numbers of people:

1. It is not a mosque.
2. It is not at Ground Zero.
3. Freedom of religion is guarenteed by the US Constitution no matter what.

The demogoguery on this issue is right off the scale. I believe the reason for it has to do with trying to keep the Tea Party set good and angry, but directing their anger at a target other than the big banks and big government that is so beloved by the super-rich ruling elites.

Bottom line is that useful idiots are useful when you can control them.

 

[obtuseobserver]

It is an issue that got Harry Reid, Howard Dean, Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich to agree.

You think Reid and Dean are trying to help out the Tea Party?

It is an issue that strikes a visceral chord in many.

They absolutely have a right to the free exercise of their religion but the fact that they need permits up the ass before building is an indicator that they don't necessarily have the right to build on that location.

The arguments do not concern themselves with the right they concern themselves with "ought." Many believe they ought not build on that site. I tend to agree.

 

[AK_ID]

This issue is by far the most dishonest political issue I've seen in a long time.

Three facts seem to be constantly and consistently overlooked by massive numbers of people:

1. It is not a mosque.
2. It is not at Ground Zero.
3. Freedom of religion is guarenteed by the US Constitution no matter what.

The demogoguery on this issue is right off the scale. I believe the reason for it has to do with trying to keep the Tea Party set good and angry, but directing their anger at a target other than the big banks and big government that is so beloved by the super-rich ruling elites.

Bottom line is that useful idiots are useful when you can control them.

1. It is a mosque.

2. It is at Ground Zero. The building at question received an 1,800-pound chunk of aluminum landing gear through the roof during the attack, and suffered major damage as a result.

3. The Constitution guarantees only that Congress is not permitted to establish a state religion.

 

[David]

1. It is a mosque.

2. It is at Ground Zero. The building at question received an 1,800-pound chunk of aluminum landing gear through the roof during the attack, and suffered major damage as a result.

3. The Constitution guarantees only that Congress is not permitted to establish a state religion.

It's basically a Muslim YMCA with a mosque located (as a separate entity) inside for use by Muslim visitors.

2. GZ is the point of impact (the TT). Park Place is 4 blocks away from GZ and 2 blocks away from the WTC itself.

3. It also bans the gov't from hindering worship. They can't stop Park51's construction for so-called insensitivity as it would hinder the ability of the Muslims who own the land from worshipping. That's what the historical status fight was all about, a legit way of stopping it.

 

[danstevens80]

Ground zero is an American memorial monument

Americans can be Muslims, you know.
That's what freedom of religious practice is all about.

 

[obtuseobserver]

Yup, that what the free exercise clause is about.

However, that's not what this discussion is about.

 

[David]

Yup, that what the free exercise clause is about.

However, that's not what this discussion is about.

No, it's about how people have allowed emotion to blind them.

 

[obtuseobserver]

No, it's about how people have allowed emotion to blind them.

Emotion hasn't blinded opponents of the mosque site.

However, believe it or not, emotion matters. Emotions like dignity and respect... or violent hatred warned of by Rauf is he moves the mosque to another location.

When looking at those two groups (those who want it moved and those who don't) which group's emotions have blinded them? The Americans who just want to see it moved or the Muslims who say they'll engage in violent acts if it is moved?

 

[AK_ID]

You want blind emotion? Try passing out free Bibles while wearing a yarmulke and a U.S. flag pin in Mecca during Ramadan.

 

[obtuseobserver]

Our in the banlieu outside Paris

Our in the banlieu outside Paris

Our in the banlieu outside Paris

 

[AK_ID]

Don't confuse them. .....................................................................

 

[David]

You want blind emotion? Try passing out free Bibles while wearing a yarmulke and a U.S. flag pin in Mecca during Ramadan.

So because a totalitarian dictatorship hiding behind religion has baned something, we should be able to do the same? How dictatorial of you, I thought you supported freedom.

Don't pull the, "They did it, so why can't we," argument if you don't support what they're doing.

 

[AK_ID]

So because a totalitarian dictatorship hiding behind religion has baned something, we should be able to do the same? How dictatorial of you, I thought you supported freedom.

Don't pull the, "They did it, so why can't we," argument if you don't support what they're doing.

Kid, don't play your games with me. Not once did I mention a ban on mosques. Use your head for God's sake. Oh, and it's banned, not baned.

I would not support building a shrine to Nazism on the site of a concentration camp. I would not support the concept of building a KKK monument next to MLK's tomb. I also do not support building a mosque at Ground Zero.

You may be too young to understand the concept of respect for the fallen, but I am not.

 

[obtuseobserver]

So because a totalitarian dictatorship hiding behind religion has baned something, we should be able to do the same? How dictatorial of you, I thought you supported freedom.

Don't pull the, "They did it, so why can't we," argument if you don't support what they're doing.

No, you missed the point.

You were asserting that Americans who oppose the Mosque at the proposed site were operating with blind emotion.

We pointed out better examples of operating out of blind emotion that make your claim look silly at best and frankly cliched.

 

[AK_ID]

Don't confuse him. ..............................................................

 

[David]

Don't confuse him. ..............................................................

Don't insult the honor of over a billion people because less then a quarter of 1% of them have issues with socialization and sanity.

Alas, I've come to expect flame baiting and disrespect from you.

 

[obtuseobserver]

Don't insult the honor of over a billion people because less then a quarter of 1% of them have issues with socialization and sanity.

Alas, I've come to expect flame baiting and disrespect from you.

The number is much larger than a quarter of 1%

Here's an article from 2006 discussing a Pew poll they were polling in numbers over 50% depending on the specific question and state.

But let's accept 1% 1% of a billion is 100,000,000 or 1/3 (roughly) of the population of the US.

Here's an excerpt from a Muslim woman who gets a lot of pub on polling w/regard to terrorism etc...

n her July 4, 2009 speech to the ISNA convention, Mogahed cited polling data from Who Speaks for Islam? In the book, Esposito and Mogahed claimed that just 7 percent of Muslims worldwide were "politically radicalized." In her ISNA speech, Mogahed defined this 7 percent as Muslims "who said 9/11 was completely justified."

Read more at: http://www.investigativeproject.org/1904/dalia-mogahed-a-muslim-george-gallup-or-islamist

So according to her the number would be 700,000,000 or roughly twice the population of the US.

Other data:

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf



Respect is earned. Tossing out speculative facts that bear no reasonable relation to reality on the regular isn't gonna help.

 

[obtuseobserver]

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

YuyyyyyupxitIy

 

[obtuseobserver]

Mea culpable

Those numbers have an extra 0

Should have been ten and seventy million

 

[David]

Mea culpable

Those numbers have an extra 0

Should have been ten and seventy million

So we have between 10 and 70 million terrorists running around? That's most of the worlds armies combined, so I doubt that validity of that claim.