Wait a second!

[Stonewall]

In Belgium, civilians are not allowed to possess military weapons, automatic firearms, and their ammunition, concealable firearms, silencers, laser sights, and high capacity cartridges.....

Guns in Belgium: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

So....what is this in my Wall Street Journal?

Multimillion Diamond Heist at Brussels Airport

Shortly before 8 p.m. Monday, two black vehicles with blue lights resembling police transport pulled up to a Helvetic Airways Fokker 100 jet plane, operating for Swiss International Air Lines, that had just been loaded, according to Belgian prosecutor Ine Van Wymersch and other people familiar with the events.
Eight masked men with machine guns held the ground staff, crew and passengers at gunpoint as they forced security workers to open the plane's cargo door.

...with machine guns.....but...machine guns are illegal in Belgium! And I bet these cats had high capacity magazines....where did they get those?

Perhaps America is paying attention. Should this robbery gotten out of hand, those guns probably would have been used. Belgium gun laws, think we should copy those.

Criminals don't obey laws, fellow Citizens. Wake up.

 

[tecoyah]

The firearm-related death rate in Belgium is 2.43 per 100,000 people.



The firearm-related death rate in the United States is 10.2 per 100,000 people.

 

[Iolo]

In Belgium, civilians are not allowed to possess military weapons, automatic firearms, and their ammunition, concealable firearms, silencers, laser sights, and high capacity cartridges.....

Guns in Belgium: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

So....what is this in my Wall Street Journal?

Multimillion Diamond Heist at Brussels Airport

Shortly before 8 p.m. Monday, two black vehicles with blue lights resembling police transport pulled up to a Helvetic Airways Fokker 100 jet plane, operating for Swiss International Air Lines, that had just been loaded, according to Belgian prosecutor Ine Van Wymersch and other people familiar with the events.
Eight masked men with machine guns held the ground staff, crew and passengers at gunpoint as they forced security workers to open the plane's cargo door.

...with machine guns.....but...machine guns are illegal in Belgium! And I bet these cats had high capacity magazines....where did they get those?

Perhaps America is paying attention. Should this robbery gotten out of hand, those guns probably would have been used. Belgium gun laws, think we should copy those.

Criminals don't obey laws, fellow Citizens. Wake up.

Mad yanks, no doubt, proving how free they are, in the absence of some Belgian children to kill.

 

[Stonewall]

The firearm-related death rate in Belgium is 2.43 per 100,000 people.



The firearm-related death rate in the United States is 10.2 per 100,000 people.

Statmement on the decadence of our society...or guns?

moving on.

 

[Stonewall]

Mad yanks, no doubt, proving how free they are, in the absence of some Belgian children to kill.

Yes...."no doubt."

And who are you calling a yank?

 

[misterveritis]

Heat in the Kitchen

The firearm-related death rate in Belgium is 2.43 per 100,000 people.

The firearm-related death rate in the United States is 10.2 per 100,000 people.

If you can stand in the heat of the kitchen for a post or two, what is the overall crime rate per capita in Belgium? If you cannot stand the heat I will understand.

 

[misterveritis]

The firearm-related death rate in Belgium is 2.43 per 100,000 people.



The firearm-related death rate in the United States is 10.2 per 100,000 people.

Here are some points for discussion. My thanks to this web site and Maciamo who prepared this work.

Here are comparative statistics (number of crimes per 100,000 persons). The sources used are
US crime statistics by state (in 2004) on Wikipedia, and Crime statistics for Belgium (including 2004) from the Belgian national statistics institute. I have divided for Belgium the absolute numbers by 100 to obtain a rough "per 100,000 persons" value.


Violent Crimes

Interestingly, Belgium appears to have a higher rate of homicides (9.6) and assaults (649) than the US average (respectively 5.5 and 291).

For homicides, Belgium can be likened to Maryland. Only Louisiana and the District of Columbia have more homicides per capita. 2004 appears to have been an exceptionally bad year in Belgium. In 2000, the rate was only 6.7, like those of California or NYC. Yet, I cannot explain how Belgium has so many homicides.

According to this List of countries by intentional homicide rate, the homicide rate in Belgium is only of 1.5. Nationmaster also gives 1.5. That contradicts the official statistics of the Belgian government. The rate for the USA of 5.5 seems to be the same everywhere. So something must be wrong with Belgian stats somewhere.

As for assaults, the stats for Belgium agree with each others, but those for the USA don't this time. Nationmaster gives a rate of 756 per 100,000, against 291 on Wikipedia. That's 2.5 times higher ! If we trust Wikipedia only District of Columbia has more assaults per capita than Belgium. If we trust Nationmaster, Belgium is safer than the American average.

Rapes, however, are less common in Belgium (27 against 32 in the USA). Belgium would rank as the 15th safest state in that regard. Nationmaster gives a slightly lower rate for both Belgium (24) and the USA (30), because the year is not 2004 but 2002.

Property Crimes

The total rate of thefts in Belgium is of 4,234 per 100,000. This is a bit higher than the US average (3,517). However, the statistics are a bit misleading.

First of all, the Belgian statistics place robberies in the Property Crimes category, while it is under Violent Crime in the USA. But robberies are almost 4 times more common in the USA than in Belgium (136 against 36).

Motor vehicle thefts are also more frequent in America (421 against 273).

Interestingly, the rate of burglaries is also higher in the USA (730, against 607 in Belgium), despite the (false) sense of safety in that regard in many parts of the States, where people leave their (back)doors open. In Belgium almost everyone locks their doors. In spite of that, 20 US states experience proportionally less burglaries than Belgium (mostly northern states). North Dakota has the least burglaries of any US states, about half the rate of Belgium.

So what is left among thefts that makes the total number higher for Belgium ? Mostly bicycle thefts (almost a tenth of all thefts !), shoplifting, and thefts in cars (handbags, stereos, navigation systems, laptops).

In other words, serious thefts like robberies or car thefts are more widespread in the US, while pettier thefts predominate in Belgium.​

 

[Stonewall]

For me, there are too many variables in any gun related death rate statistics. Too many factors influenced by culture or societal behaviors. An example of my point in the US is the city of Chicago. One of our most violent cities and yet, some of the most stringent gun laws. Same with Washington DC.

 

[Iolo]

Yes...."no doubt."

And who are you calling a yank?

It is liked the American use of 'English' for normal people, a bad habit sometimes deliberately indulged in!

 

[tecoyah]

If you can stand in the heat of the kitchen for a post or two, what is the overall crime rate per capita in Belgium? If you cannot stand the heat I will understand.

Do you for some strange reason, believe poorly veiled insult to be something that will actually lead to someone wishing to interact?

 

[misterveritis]

Do you for some strange reason, believe poorly veiled insult to be something that will actually lead to someone wishing to interact?

You have show you cannot stand the heat. I was just pointing out the obvious.

We all have our blind spots. That includes you. And me.

 

[tecoyah]

You have show you cannot stand the heat. I was just pointing out the obvious.

We all have our blind spots. That includes you. And me.

What you proclaim as an inability to hold my own in debate (stand the heat), I see as avoiding the inevitable and pointless degradation of debate when it is obvious the partner in such has no intention of adding to or forwarding useful discussion.

Still, I can see how you have formed that opinion as most attempts at debate with you end in this way.

I suppose there are certain flames I avoid...thus I cannot take the heat.

 

[Aeonpax]

In Belgium, civilians are not allowed to possess military weapons, automatic firearms, and their ammunition, concealable firearms, silencers, laser sights, and high capacity cartridges.....
Guns in Belgium: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law
So....what is this in my Wall Street Journal?
Multimillion Diamond Heist at Brussels Airport
Shortly before 8 p.m. Monday, two black vehicles with blue lights resembling police transport pulled up to a Helvetic Airways Fokker 100 jet plane, operating for Swiss International Air Lines, that had just been loaded, according to Belgian prosecutor Ine Van Wymersch and other people familiar with the events. Eight masked men with machine guns held the ground staff, crew and passengers at gunpoint as they forced security workers to open the plane's cargo door....with machine guns.....but...machine guns are illegal in Belgium! And I bet these cats had high capacity magazines....where did they get those? Perhaps America is paying attention. Should this robbery gotten out of hand, those guns probably would have been used. Belgium gun laws, think we should copy those. Criminals don't obey laws, fellow Citizens. Wake up.

Really bad analogy. Here, the OP is attempting to make the case or imply that Belgium's legal prohibition of guns a) Is responsible for this robbery and b) citizens having guns could have prevented it. Both are logical fallacies.

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc - Literally means; “after this therefore because of this.” This post hoc fallacy is committed when the OP assumed that because one thing occurred after another, it must have occurred as a result of it. Example - Belgium imposes a gun ownership restriction. Then, a robbery occurs with criminals using guns. Therefore, Belgium's gun laws do not work.

Never mind that those gums could have been stolen or smuggled in. The news report does not state. Why let such minor things as proof and evidence sully a perfectly good ideological canard.

Another "Post Hoc." If citizens had guns, they could have prevented this robbery. I don't think so. Not only no evidence but it runs counter to the way most "normal" humans react to a crime they are not involved in....they don't get involved.

"Post Hoc" #3. The criminals had machine guns, therefore, the citizens should have machine guns. Yeah....right. What if they used a LAW rockets? There is a blatant logical disconnect here.

 

[Stonewall]

But, in post #8 of this thread, I mentioned Chicago. One of our most violent cities, but one with strict gun laws. Washington DC another city mentioned, are those better analogies?

 

[David]

It is liked the American use of 'English' for normal people, a bad habit sometimes deliberately indulged in!

The problem with calling Americans Yanks (or any variation thereof) is that some Americans are in fact Dixies. In light of the fact that the 2 cultures don't have a history of peaceful co-existence and Americans as a whole have a love for violence, it might be unwise to deliberately make that 'mistake'.

 

[Aeonpax]

But, in post #8 of this thread, I mentioned Chicago. One of our most violent cities, but one with strict gun laws. Washington DC another city mentioned, are those better analogies?

At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, I'm an experienced gun owner. I own four of them. All three of my daughters (under 18) have gone through training for both handguns and rifles. We practice at least once a week. (I live in a very rural area) None of us hunt, other than shooting pests like squirrels and racoons. It is my most fervent wish that I never have to raise a weapon in fear or anger.

Chicago is a cesspool.

 

[Stonewall]

The problem with calling Americans Yanks (or any variation thereof) is that some Americans are in fact Dixies. In light of the fact that the 2 cultures don't have a history of peaceful co-existence and Americans as a whole have a love for violence, it might be unwise to deliberately make that 'mistake'.

There isn't a culture or nation in recorded history that didn't have this "love for violence", it's an all mankind thing.

Some throw stones from glass houses, David so that's all I think you're seeing there.

 

[Stonewall]

Chicago is a cesspool.

Well then....why would we hire the Senator from the great state of Illinois who is "from Chicago" where he was a community organizer to preside over this entire nation....that we can see isn't that far behind cesspool.

And why doesn't anyone take this opinion you state here and confront the President with it? Why does this government sit here and do absolutely nothing.....along with its' citizenry Aeonpax...while inner cities such as Chicago...or Washington DC turn into "cesspools" as you say.....and then act like righteous Monday Morning Quarterbacks in demanding gun control only after some horrific event in suburbia Newton, Connecticut?

Why is it robberies like I exampled above, inner city reality here in the US, events involving guns given to gangs hoping to track the weapons, why aren't these events played out in the gun control debates? No one can look to our current leader and ask him what he did to curb crime reduce gun violence in his own city because he flat out didn't.

 

[David]

There isn't a culture or nation in recorded history that didn't have this "love for violence", it's an all mankind thing.

Some throw stones from glass houses, David so that's all I think you're seeing there.

Yes but calling every American a Yank is about as healthy as calling every Asian Japanese. I'd love to see him make his comment in a Southern bar.

 

[Aeonpax]

Well then....why would we hire the Senator from the great state of Illinois who is "from Chicago" where he was a community organizer to preside over this entire nation....that we can see isn't that far behind cesspool.

And why doesn't anyone take this opinion you state here and confront the President with it? Why does this government sit here and do absolutely nothing.....along with its' citizenry Aeonpax...while inner cities such as Chicago...or Washington DC turn into "cesspools" as you say.....and then act like righteous Monday Morning Quarterbacks in demanding gun control only after some horrific event in suburbia Newton, Connecticut?<snipped for brevity>.

While I did not vote for Obama in this last election, nor Romney (I voted for Jill Stein) Obama is no more responsible for what goes on in Chicago than I am for what goes in in Milwaukee, where I used to live.