a trend toward the fatalistic

arcturus88 · Jul 6, 2013

you can see it everywhere. there is a definite trend toward fatalistic thinking. movies, tv, politics, weather, religion...everyone is anticipating the end of it all.

I have moved toward a more fatalistic view myself. I used to fight the good fight, rale against the wrongs (at least in my mind..tehe), now im kind of like "eh, what happens is going to happen"

consider for example the trouble in the middle east...

my fatalistic thought process: "eh, who cares. better they kill each other than try to kill us, besides, you got to earn your and democracy if that's what you really want. better to earn it through blood than have us step in to hand it to them"

if the stock market crashes...

my fatalistic thought process: "its a natural correction to years of greedy ploys to make more money, its natural, forget the stimulus, lert it happen son."

well that's just a couple, but I seem rife with fatalistic thoughts these days. enough of me...how about you?

tecoyah · Jul 6, 2013

arcturus88 said:
you can see it everywhere. there is a definite trend toward fatalistic thinking. movies, tv, politics, weather, religion...everyone is anticipating the end of it all.

I have moved toward a more fatalistic view myself. I used to fight the good fight, rale against the wrongs (at least in my mind..tehe), now im kind of like "eh, what happens is going to happen"

consider for example the trouble in the middle east...

my fatalistic thought process: "eh, who cares. better they kill each other than try to kill us, besides, you got to earn your and democracy if that's what you really want. better to earn it through blood than have us step in to hand it to them"

if the stock market crashes...

my fatalistic thought process: "its a natural correction to years of greedy ploys to make more money, its natural, forget the stimulus, lert it happen son."

well that's just a couple, but I seem rife with fatalistic thoughts these days. enough of me...how about you?

Have you taken into account the new media, and the fact pretty much everyone now knows the world?

Likely 100 yrs. ago people worried....thing is now, everyone has something to worry about.

Road Warrior · Jul 7, 2013

I agree with that belief. Every generation seems to think theirs sucks and the world is going to Hell, but history shows it always gets better. Sometimes it takes a detour. 1939-1945 kinda sucked, but the world became better in the late 40s than in the early 30s.

David · Jul 7, 2013

Road Warrior said:
I agree with that belief. Every generation seems to think theirs sucks and the world is going to Hell, but history shows it always gets better. Sometimes it takes a detour. 1939-1945 kinda sucked, but the world became better in the late 40s than in the early 30s.

I'm sure the Romans were saying the same thing. 90% literacy, public schools, a strong economy, no wars then they got a bad emperor and 50 years later it was the middle age.

Frankly I'm not so optimistic about our chances.

myp · Jul 7, 2013

David said:
I'm sure the Romans were saying the same thing. 90% literacy, public schools, a strong economy, no wars then they got a bad emperor and 50 years later it was the middle age. Frankly I'm not so optimistic about our chances.

And yet, we sit here on the Internet as we enjoy probably the most prosperous time in human history if health, education, leisure, or freedom are any measure.

David · Jul 7, 2013

myp said:
And yet, we sit here on the Internet as we enjoy probably the most prosperous time in human history if health, education, leisure, or freedom are any measure.

Like I said, Rome was at the height of it's power 50 years before it fell. Comfort means nothing if the politicians are too busy playing games to keep civilization functioning. If you need a more contemporary example, look at the state of Asia after the USSR fell apart.

Road Warrior · Jul 8, 2013

David said:
I'm sure the Romans were saying the same thing. 90% literacy, public schools, a strong economy, no wars then they got a bad emperor and 50 years later it was the middle age. Frankly I'm not so optimistic about our chances.

Aren't we far better off than the Romans? No lead in our drinking water, less wars (BTW, the Romans were always fighting someone by expansionism), better nutrition and rights?

FWIW, I'm very optimistic about our chances. The historical trend shows it. Even our poor are better off than what would be considered rich 2-3 thousand years ago. Better health, protection and technology for starters.

Life Expectancy - Overview of Life Expectancy

Historic Life Expectancy

During the Roman Empire, Romans had a approximate life expectancy of 22 to 25 years. In 1900, the world life expectancy was approximately 30 years and in 1985 it was about 62 years, just two years short of today's life expectancy.

http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic185273.files/frier-ulpian.pdf

Life Expectancy by Age, 1850?2004 | Infoplease.com

David · Jul 8, 2013

Road Warrior said:
Aren't we far better off than the Romans? No lead in our drinking water, less wars (BTW, the Romans were always fighting someone by expansionism), better nutrition and rights?

FWIW, I'm very optimistic about our chances. The historical trend shows it. Even our poor are better off than what would be considered rich 2-3 thousand years ago. Better health, protection and technology for starters.

Life Expectancy - Overview of Life Expectancy

http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic185273.files/frier-ulpian.pdf

Life Expectancy by Age, 1850?2004 | Infoplease.com

Taking into account that Rome was pre-industrial, they were relatively equal to ourselves. Rome had also given up on expansionism after Emperor Hadrian declared set borders, the Empire had truly been at peace for about a century aside from Attila invading and the odd, minor bit of civil unrest.

myp · Jul 8, 2013

David said:
Like I said, Rome was at the height of it's power 50 years before it fell. Comfort means nothing if the politicians are too busy playing games to keep civilization functioning. If you need a more contemporary example, look at the state of Asia after the USSR fell apart.

The point is we face setbacks from time to time, but the general trend is positive.

And life for the average person today is far better than it was for the Romans, any way you put it. Even in terms of freedom - remember, Rome and pretty much everyone had slavery.

arcturus88 · Jul 8, 2013

tecoyah said:
Have you taken into account the new media, and the fact pretty much everyone now knows the world?

Likely 100 yrs. ago people worried....thing is now, everyone has something to worry about.

its less worry and more apathy I guess... for me anyways.

arcturus88 · Jul 8, 2013

myp said:
The point is we face setbacks from time to time, but the general trend is positive.

And life for the average person today is far better than it was for the Romans, any way you put it. Even in terms of freedom - remember, Rome and pretty much everyone had slavery.

perhaps the thing is though, with big gains come big setbacks. in other words, maybe there is a natural correction to things.

i agree we have had unprecedented gains over the years, so when is the other shoe going to drop? i think this may be behind the mass media view of impending apocalypse, etc.

were kind of expecting it (or hoping for it?) .

myp · Jul 8, 2013

arcturus88 said:
i agree we have had unprecedented gains over the years, so when is the other shoe going to drop?

It isn't going to. We have had unprecedented setbacks along the way too- most recently the financial crisis. But the setbacks are smaller than the gains over the long run and that is progress.

Road Warrior · Jul 8, 2013

Aufgeblassen said:
Sorry to quote myself, but I mean strictly in an economic sense. But as far as "decency" goes, we are worse off, and still sliding downward. I blame the breakup of the family, whereas you used to have the SAME mother & father for life, the SAME brothers and sisters for life, and the SAME grand-parents for life.

Disagreed. In my memory alone, I've seen how many thought the US was going to Hell in the 1960s and many others thought we were going to destroy ourselves. I, like you, grew up in the "Duck and Cover" age.

That was almost 50 years ago and they were all wrong. The world has gotten better in the mean time.

NSFW due to graphic images of violence and war.
[YOUTUBE]ntLsElbW9Xo[/YOUTUBE]

David · Jul 8, 2013

myp said:
The point is we face setbacks from time to time, but the general trend is positive.

And life for the average person today is far better than it was for the Romans, any way you put it. Even in terms of freedom - remember, Rome and pretty much everyone had slavery.

And we don't have slavery? 900k outright slaves plus a few million wage slaves...

The fact is, we look more like Rome just after Attila was beaten and all the civil unrest started to get out of hand as each day passes. Our economy is rapidly degrading (even if it's on the uptick atm, the fundamentals are still rotten), our military is made up of more mercenaries and fewer citizen soldiers every month that passes, our southern border is a joke and our northern border exists only on paper, the citizenry is decadent and lazy, the gov't has 0 legitimacy in the eyes of the people (Assad and the Ba'ath Party have more support than our own gov't and Syria is in the middle of a civil war!). Really the only part of our situation that doesn't look like Rome just before it all went to shit is our strong industrial sector (not that it helps the workers with all the automation). The only thing keeping this country from descending into civil war right now is apathy. Eventually that will change or some crazy colonel will decide he/she would make a better president and this place will go up in flames. Our fall won't have the effect of Rome's, China and Europe will pick up the pieces but it will look like the post-Soviet power vacuum in Asia.

Humanity at large might be in a forever raising state but there are local setbacks and it's just about our turn to suffer such a setback.

myp · Jul 8, 2013

David said:
And we don't have slavery? 900k outright slaves plus a few million wage slaves...

The fact is, we look more like Rome just after Attila was beaten and all the civil unrest started to get out of hand as each day passes. Our economy is rapidly degrading (even if it's on the uptick atm, the fundamentals are still rotten), our military is made up of more mercenaries and fewer citizen soldiers every month that passes, our southern border is a joke and our northern border exists only on paper, the citizenry is decadent and lazy, the gov't has 0 legitimacy in the eyes of the people (Assad and the Ba'ath Party have more support than our own gov't and Syria is in the middle of a civil war!). Really the only part of our situation that doesn't look like Rome just before it all went to shit is our strong industrial sector (not that it helps the workers with all the automation). The only thing keeping this country from descending into civil war right now is apathy. Eventually that will change or some crazy colonel will decide he/she would make a better president and this place will go up in flames. Our fall won't have the effect of Rome's, China and Europe will pick up the pieces but it will look like the post-Soviet power vacuum in Asia.

Humanity at large might be in a forever raising state but there are local setbacks and it's just about our turn to suffer such a setback.

I disagree with most of this.

Iolo · Jul 9, 2013

The rich have total control of the governments and the media, and their lies pervade everywhere. In such circumstances fatalism will tend to prevail, until they try to make us eat grass, to spite the Muslims. It's the way it works, alas! You fight or you die.

Road Warrior · Jul 9, 2013

Iolo said:
The rich have total control of the governments and the media, and their lies pervade everywhere. In such circumstances fatalism will tend to prevail, until they try to make us eat grass, to spite the Muslims. It's the way it works, alas! You fight or you die.

When to you plan to start fighting or dying?

BTW, I disagree that "the rich" have total control. If they did, things would be a lot crappier than they are.

Don't forget Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Iolo · Jul 11, 2013

Road Warrior said:
When to you plan to start fighting or dying?

BTW, I disagree that "the rich" have total control. If they did, things would be a lot crappier than they are.

Don't forget Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

They are not mutually exclusive: the rich and their serfs are extremely stupid, like their incredible system, but they are also full of the most venomous spite because of their empty, thwarted lives. I have been fighting the buggers all my life, and am ready to die when it is useful.

Road Warrior · Jul 11, 2013

Iolo said:
They are not mutually exclusive: the rich and their serfs are extremely stupid, like their incredible system, but they are also full of the most venomous spite because of their empty, thwarted lives. I have been fighting the buggers all my life, and am ready to die when it is useful.

So you think I'm a serf? When should I start yelling "I'm being repressed"?

Regarding dying. How do you see yourself dying? Car bomb? Assassination attempt? In the service of your country as a member of the military or in a revolt yelling "Wolverines!"?

Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
King Arthur: Bloody peasant!
Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

Iolo · Jul 11, 2013

Road Warrior said:
So you think I'm a serf? When should I start yelling "I'm being repressed"?

Regarding dying. How do you see yourself dying? Car bomb? Assassination attempt? In the service of your country as a member of the military or in a revolt yelling "Wolverines!"?

When you wake up, obviously - but the nature of American brainwashing has been pretty total, so you may die in your sleep.
Dying? - the usual way - arrest of all democratic people after a military coup and murder in American-organised camps, here or abroad - if they can catch me. Why do you ask?

a trend toward the fatalistic

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