Another obama "foreign policy success"

Patrick · Dec 24, 2011

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...rian-tensions-raise-concerns-iraq-unraveling/

Obama pulls everyone out of iraq, without stabilizing the country, because he has no clue how, and now nine years of work are unraveling.

David · Dec 25, 2011

Patrick said:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...rian-tensions-raise-concerns-iraq-unraveling/

Obama pulls everyone out of iraq, without stabilizing the country, because he has no clue how, and now nine years of work are unraveling.

Or maybe it was because Iraq said we could only keep 3K and refused them legal protection.

Patrick · Dec 25, 2011

David said:
Or maybe it was because Iraq said we could only keep 3K and refused them legal protection.

The US should have stabilized things while it still had leverage. obama wasted three years doing nothing, and now after all these years, it looks like america's only amateur president will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

David · Dec 26, 2011

Patrick said:
The US should have stabilized things while it still had leverage. obama wasted three years doing nothing, and now after all these years, it looks like america's only amateur president will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

He fought (and won) the real war, that's the opposite of doing nothing. Nation building was never the objective anyway, overthrowing the Taliban and Bath'hits and dismantling al Qaeda was. We only stayed in Iraq so nobody could say we didn't clean up our mess.

DodgeFB · Dec 26, 2011

Let me just throw my opinion in here. Iraq will now return to basically what it has always been. We were like the fire department watching for the fire to flame back up.

Yes it has already started. If we stayed 20 more years it would still happen. We can not (and probably should not)turn Iraq into USA middle East branch. They have their own core beliefs and we can't change them. We gave it a hell of a shot. But they will and are rejecting doing things our way.

I think we helped Iran more than we helped ourselves. So when I look at the lives and blood we spent there not to mention money it looks to have been a bad deal for the US. I was one of those that supported the war. But combining war and "nation building" seems to always fail in the long run. If we are going to war we need to do it and go. If we are going to build anything build it where the people that live there don't blow it first chance they get. We could build something here for a start.

myp · Dec 26, 2011

DodgeFB said:
Let me just throw my opinion in here. Iraq will now return to basically what it has always been. We were like the fire department watching for the fire to flame back up.

Yes it has already started. If we stayed 20 more years it would still happen. We can not (and probably should not)turn Iraq into USA middle East branch. They have their own core beliefs and we can't change them. We gave it a hell of a shot. But they will and are rejecting doing things our way.

I think we helped Iran more than we helped ourselves. So when I look at the lives and blood we spent there not to mention money it looks to have been a bad deal for the US. I was one of those that supported the war. But combining war and "nation building" seems to always fail in the long run. If we are going to war we need to do it and go. If we are going to build anything build it where the people that live there don't blow it first chance they get. We could build something here for a start.

I don't think Iraq will return to what it was. The world has changed and so has its people even with setbacks at times.

I personally think we should have never gone there- it was unneeded and stupid. Also, as proven it was based on lies.

That aside, unnecessary "nation building", should not happen because unnecessary war should not happen. It is really a tricky situation. On one hand investing in the country might reduce the chance of blowback (but if done wrong it might increase it). Aside from the numbers, there are the questions of morality. Civilians of enemy nations are valued much more in today's warfare than in the past- and I think that is a good thing. With that in mind, an argument for rebuilding also arises though. Again, in my opinion, this "tricky situation" should not occur a lot because we should not fall into needless wars like Iraq as we have.

DodgeFB · Dec 26, 2011

myp said:
I don't think Iraq will return to what it was. The world has changed and so has its people even with setbacks at times.

But the three main groups in Iraq still don't get along. Their president wants the vice president arrested just two days after we leave. Religious disagreement is my guess. Where did he run? To the Kurds. Best I remember the Kurds were treated like outsiders before we ever showed up. They have the same mix of people and beliefs and no one to get in the way. And Iran will only back one of the three. They are licking their paws like a cat watching a bird. Ready to join the fight the first chance they get.

DodgeFB · Dec 26, 2011

Iraq violence: Deadly explosions strike Baghdad

A wave of apparently co-ordinated bomb attacks in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, has killed at least 63 people and injured around 185, say officials.

The interior ministry told the BBC 14 blasts hit various locations, including al-Amil in the south and Halawi and Karrada closer to the centre.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16298187

This is why I believe they are going to repeat their history.

Patrick · Dec 26, 2011

David said:
He fought (and won) the real war, that's the opposite of doing nothing. Nation building was never the objective anyway, overthrowing the Taliban and Bath'hits and dismantling al Qaeda was. We only stayed in Iraq so nobody could say we didn't clean up our mess.

Once again, I have NO IDEA what you're talking about - what's the "real war"??

Obama didn't fight and win ANYTHING. He's BAILING on ten years of effort in afghanistan and iraq. Obamabots have this amazing Warp-O-Vision where they look at everything obama has touched, and see the results as the opposite of what they are.

Patrick · Dec 26, 2011

myp said:
I don't think Iraq will return to what it was. The world has changed and so has its people even with setbacks at times.

I personally think we should have never gone there- it was unneeded and stupid. Also, as proven it was based on lies.

That aside, unnecessary "nation building", should not happen because unnecessary war should not happen. It is really a tricky situation. On one hand investing in the country might reduce the chance of blowback (but if done wrong it might increase it). Aside from the numbers, there are the questions of morality. Civilians of enemy nations are valued much more in today's warfare than in the past- and I think that is a good thing. With that in mind, an argument for rebuilding also arises though. Again, in my opinion, this "tricky situation" should not occur a lot because we should not fall into needless wars like Iraq as we have.

What's the definition of a "needed" war??

myp · Dec 26, 2011

Patrick said:
What's the definition of a "needed" war??

Certainly not an invasion based on lies that was not a national defense necessity or a response to an attack/major threat.

Patrick · Dec 26, 2011

myp said:
Certainly not an invasion based on lies that was not a national defense necessity or a response to an attack/major threat.

Your response is like being asked "What's an orangutan?" and answering "It's not a bicycle."

myp · Dec 26, 2011

Patrick said:
Your response is like being asked "What's an orangutan?" and answering "It's not a bicycle."

Okay... :giggle:

David · Dec 26, 2011

DodgeFB said:
But the three main groups in Iraq still don't get along. Their president wants the vice president arrested just two days after we leave. Religious disagreement is my guess. Where did he run? To the Kurds. Best I remember the Kurds were treated like outsiders before we ever showed up. They have the same mix of people and beliefs and no one to get in the way. And Iran will only back one of the three. They are licking their paws like a cat watching a bird. Ready to join the fight the first chance they get.

The Kurds are going to push for independence (and with US and Iranian support the Turks will just write angry letters so long as the Kurds don't get stupid) while the rest of Iraq will ether ally with or get annexed by Iran (the latter setting off the mother of all Mideast wars).

DodgeFB · Dec 26, 2011

David said:
The Kurds are going to push for independence (and with US and Iranian support the Turks will just write angry letters so long as the Kurds don't get stupid) while the rest of Iraq will ether ally with or get annexed by Iran (the latter setting off the mother of all Mideast wars).

Maybe. I think they will throw away their chance. I hate to think it, but at times I feel like they had the best government for them. They knew the "rules" and knew if they broke them the price would be paid. And Iran would have left them alone.

Most of them are not grateful for any effort to help them. And the ones that appreciated what was done will now pay the price for befriending the Americans.
Seems we are good at stirring up a mess, getting tired of it, and leaving our friends hanging. If I was a citizen of Iraq or a neighboring country I may not trust us either.

In the end maybe countries do get the government they deserve. Or maybe I am just depressed by the state of the world tonight.

Patrick · Dec 26, 2011

David said:
The Kurds are going to push for independence (and with US and Iranian support the Turks will just write angry letters so long as the Kurds don't get stupid) while the rest of Iraq will ether ally with or get annexed by Iran (the latter setting off the mother of all Mideast wars).

There's no way either the turks or the rest of iraq will allow kurd independence. The kurds can't be that stupid not to realize this.

David · Dec 27, 2011

Patrick said:
There's no way either the turks or the rest of iraq will allow kurd independence. The kurds can't be that stupid not to realize this.

Iraq is already falling apart, and Kurdistan is borderline independent already. If the want out, Baghdad can't do shit about it. As for the Turks, yes but the have the US and Iran (so long as they don't stir up trouble with the Iranian Kurds) supporting them. So long as Kurdistan plays nice and refuses aid to the PKK Turkey won't be able to do anything but complain. Like I said, the Kurds need to be smart (which is questionable) but if they are they can survive.

netanyahoo · Dec 27, 2011

Lets make foxy news Oreilly and Hannity the President to fix Iraq

Patrick said:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...rian-tensions-raise-concerns-iraq-unraveling/

Obama pulls everyone out of iraq, without stabilizing the country, because he has no clue how, and now nine years of work are unraveling.

These foxy news retarded morons should be sent to 'eye-raq' to stabilize the country. The purpose of war in 'eye-raq' was to set Iraq into stone age so that our Mistress can live in peace.

DodgeFB · Dec 27, 2011

netanyahoo said:
The purpose of war in 'eye-raq' was to set Iraq into stone age so that our Mistress can live in peace.

Well they will be okay now with their new friends in Iran. They can now be mistress to the Iranian government. But that is now their choice. We will see how they like being Iran's bitch.

RoccoR · Dec 27, 2011

Patrick, et al,

Please excuse me, but I have to disagree.

(PREFACE)

I don't care for the Obama Administration. In my opinion, they and the entire Congress (House and Senate) are a bunch of bickering old self-serving and lazy bums that have no intention of putting the nation first. Neither the administration or Congress have demonstrated in the slightest degree that they have the knowledge, skills and abilities to make America the strongest nation in the world; economically, politically, militarily.

Patrick said:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...rian-tensions-raise-concerns-iraq-unraveling/

Obama pulls everyone out of iraq, without stabilizing the country, because he has no clue how, and now nine years of work are unraveling.

(COMMENT)

Stability is an unreasonable outcome given the decision that were make in the very beginning; and the trend/chaos of today is a natural outcome and consequence of the political and military decisions made in 2003/2004. The disbanding of the Iraqi Military and the early end to Occupation in June 2004 are mistakes that cannot now be repaired. The damage was done.

While I think that the Obama Administration is a very poor excuse for a government, I cannot lay at it feet today's outcome. That squarely rests on the shoulders of the Bush Administration, Congress, an inept Diplomatic Corps, and the PNAC Leadership that ran around inside the halls of power.

We are where we are because of what came before us.

Most Respectfully,
R

Another obama "foreign policy success"

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