Forgiveness?

Cerise · Sep 29, 2012

Pope Benedict XVI's former butler has entered no plea at the start of his trial in the Vatican on charges of aggravated theft.
Paolo Gabriele, 46, admitted earlier to leaking confidential documents to expose "evil and corruption".
The court threw out some of the more sensitive evidence gathered in the course of the investigation.
Saturday's session of the court dealt with procedural issues and the trial was adjourned until Tuesday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19769044

so three questions...
Firstly, should Mr Gabriele be forgiven? Surely this is an instance where the head of a church could/should use the incident to demonstrate practising what he preaches i.e forgiveness.
Secondly, why is the court throwing out any evidence at all?
Thirdly, if he knew of corruption, is he right to make it known or is it right to keep such things a secret?

arcturus88 · Oct 7, 2012

hello. im new here and in fact this is my first post.
so, i guess i'll dive right in...

to your first question i would say yes. however, i guess my take would be that to forgive does not mean to remove the consequence of the sin.

to your second, perhaps they mean to spare revealing unnecessary items not relevant to the case (i.e. if a document revealed that the pope prefers boxers

)

to your third, i just don't know. i don't know if corruption has been found. perhaps intent is being examined. did he really intend to do the right thing or was he looking to earn some cash from a publication?

Cerise · Oct 8, 2012

The Vatican has indicated that the Pope is likely to pardon his former butler, who has been sentenced to 18 months in jail for stealing confidential papers.
After the sentence was passed, papal spokesman Federico Lombardi said Paolo Gabriele was "very likely" to be pardoned by Pope Benedict XVI.
Prosecutors had called for a three-year sentence but it was reduced because of "mitigating circumstances".
Gabriele said he acted out of love for the Church.
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Gabriele has now been returned to house arrest inside his Vatican apartment, where he has already been confined for several months.
The verdict brings to an end a week-long trial that has revealed an embarrassing breach of security at the highest levels of the Vatican.
The trial also took an unexpected turn when Gabriele complained of the conditions in which he was held by the Vatican security force after his arrest on 23 May.
The judges ordered an investigation after Gabriele said that for more than two weeks he had been kept in a cell so small that he could not extend his arms, and that the light had been left on day and night.
=======

Gabriele used the photocopier in his shared office next to the Pope's library to copy thousands of documents, taking advantage of his unrivalled access to the pontiff.
He would later pass some on to journalist Gianluigi Nuzzi.
Mr Nuzzi released a best-selling book this year, entitled His Holiness, largely based on the confidential papers and detailing corruption, scandals and infighting.
Police also told the court how they found thousands of documents at Gabriele's home, including some original papers bearing the Pope's handwriting. Some had the instruction "destroy" written by the Pope in German on them.
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He told prosecutors he hoped to reveal alleged corruption at the Vatican, and believed that the Pope was being manipulated.
"I feel guilty of having betrayed the trust of the Holy Father, whom I love as a son would," he told the court earlier this week.
======
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19860667

Dirk · Oct 15, 2012

The way I see it, a little more transparency and accountability wouldn't go amiss in Europe's last out-and-out dictatorship.

David · Oct 16, 2012

Dirk said:
The way I see it, a little more transparency and accountability wouldn't go amiss in Europe's last out-and-out dictatorship.

Not so much a dictatorship as an elective monarchy. Dictators are absolute and illegitimate rulers. The Pope is elected, has the views of the entire Catholic Church and legally binding Church Councils going back centuries to take into account, can be removed from office (vary few Popes have ever actually be deposed but it's happened and is legal if done right) and he is very much a legitimate ruler whatever your personal feelings (I think he's an oppressive, reactionary douch myself).

tecoyah · Nov 1, 2012

Cerise said:
....snip...

so three questions...
Firstly, should Mr Gabriele be forgiven? Surely this is an instance where the head of a church could/should use the incident to demonstrate practising what he preaches i.e forgiveness.
Secondly, why is the court throwing out any evidence at all?
Thirdly, if he knew of corruption, is he right to make it known or is it right to keep such things a secret?

1) If the church was actually what it says it is, yes...forgivness would be a given.
2) Likely the court is in the Vatican's corner, if not it's pocket.
3)Corruption should never be a secret, as the secret is what allows corruption to continue and spread.

In my opinion, the Catholic Church has become something akin to the Mafia and is likely to become just as popular in time.

tecoyah · Aug 10, 2013

Aufgeblassen said:
That is a bunch of hogwash! It is ether one or the other; either you are forgiven, meaning no consequences, or you are not, in which case there are consequences.

One is speaking out of the side of their face if the "say" the forgive someone, but still want punishment applied. :smug:

My ex wife cheated on me....I can honestly state I forgive her, and in fact understand her actions allowed me the freedom to marry someone far better. I may have forgiven her....but I would be happy to never see her again.

The consequence she received is my absence from her life.

arcturus88 · Oct 28, 2013

Aufgeblassen said:
That is a bunch of hogwash! It is ether one or the other; either you are forgiven, meaning no consequences, or you are not, in which case there are consequences.

One is speaking out of the side of their face if the "say" the forgive someone, but still want punishment applied. :smug:

you are wrong.

there are (or can be) natural consequences regardless of forgiveness or "want" of a punishment.

arcturus88 · Oct 28, 2013

imagine you were driving and you honked at someone who then got out of their car and punched your driver side window out.

(1) you may decide to forgive that person on an interpersonal level for what they did; (2) but you may also (and at the same very time!) acknowledge that they need to learn not to do it again (by paying a fine or doing time).

(1) and (2) are not incompatible.

Forgiveness?

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