Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

omej · Jan 31, 2009

pingpong12 said:
Look when they show you they are removing their own people from the settlements you are basically seeing one of zillions of settlements there and it took the whole worlds protests for so long to even get them off.

Did you know that the israeli government is paying each israeli person 20,000 bucks to come and move into these settlements. Its rediculous.
Its like saying they themselves never did terrorism yet they had the stern gang among others that assasinated any british diplomat in the 1940's that was even a bit too pro arab in their stance.

I challenge parakeet to prove even one of Anna baltzers comments wrong.
Hes very good at making a sweeping statement but has no facts behind his stats.

You say shes wrong about the settlements dude, now prove it and get me some facts . No flat statements, just facts.

Democracy now, in case you dont know whats happening the arabs tried playing ball and have been trying for a long time but how do you think these settlements grew so long? By magic? for the last decade the palestinian people have been begging the israeli government to stop building those settlements on internationally recognized palestinian land. I didnt hear parakeet protest during this time and i dont hear him doing so now. Its his bias that keeps him from doing this. The facts are the settlements were the torch that lit this flame up and have been doing so for a long time.

There was only one guy that had the guts to try to make peace with the palestinians and that is the late GREAT YITZAK RABIN who cared more for his own people and the peace process then any leader they have today, but we all know what happened to him dont we.

These are some excellent points here. While I do applaud the Israelis for forcefully removing some of their settlers, it was nothing more than a symbolic gesture when compared to other things (paying settlers).

And both sides have had some pretty great leaders. Yitzak Rabin was one of the greatest men toward the peace process. Anwar Sadat also paved the way toward the possibility of even peace. It is unfortunate that they were both killed by respective extremists from their own party.

As for Hamas, their methods are despicable indeed. But theres a saying, "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter." We were once terrorists to the British. I'm not condoning their actions at all, just giving my two cents. Sometimes it seems the IDF is just as bad, if not worse. Far more Palestinians civilians have been killed in the hands of the IDF.

I blame Fatah however, for screwing everybody over back before the elections. Their incompetence led to the overwhelming election of Hamas.

The Parakeet · Jan 31, 2009

The one thing to remember with the whole "freedom fighter" angle is that Hamas isn't killing less Israel citizens for lack of trying. They just don't have the equipment to do it as efficiently as Israel. Considering that they were fighting an enemy entrenched in a dense urban population, the collateral damage is pretty low.

The main problem is the social services issue though. Hamas can win over a larger portion of the population just because they're the ones with the money to provide the services. I actually wonder if that might be the key to change. If Israel oversaw the social services in the region and gave them funding for a bit, do you think that the moderates might have a chance to gain power?

pingpong12 · Jan 31, 2009

The Parakeet said:
The one thing to remember with the whole "freedom fighter" angle is that Hamas isn't killing less Israel citizens for lack of trying. They just don't have the equipment to do it as efficiently as Israel. Considering that they were fighting an enemy entrenched in a dense urban population, the collateral damage is pretty low.

The main problem is the social services issue though. Hamas can win over a larger portion of the population just because they're the ones with the money to provide the services. I actually wonder if that might be the key to change. If Israel oversaw the social services in the region and gave them funding for a bit, do you think that the moderates might have a chance to gain power?

The key is the that and the settlement issue, the israeli government say they want the palestinians to abide by international law and at the same time they keep building settlements. If that was being done to the israelis our government would be screaming bloody murder, and remember also the moderate palestinians are just as corrupt as hamas because fatah used to be the plo and the plo were very corrupt but the problem is everytime there was a good israeli leader or a good palestinian ;leader both sides would take down their own good guys. Rabin is one example.
While Arafat spent most of his life in a lavish castle his people were suffering.

Now I wish that shimon perez didnt have to get that yelling from the turkish leader at the world summit because I actually believe that Perez and his labor party are some of the moderates from the israeli side who have a chance to make peace. Perez was just their to take the screaming that should have been for the more extreme israeli leaders. The problem is the right wingers on both sides are in control and the only ones who are happy right now are the arms suppliers.

Omey yes Sadat was a good guy. Its very sad that he paid the price of peace with his life

, same for Rabin

What would that region have been like if their visions of peace were allowed to be carried out. One can only wonder

omej · Jan 31, 2009

The Parakeet said:
The main problem is the social services issue though. Hamas can win over a larger portion of the population just because they're the ones with the money to provide the services. I actually wonder if that might be the key to change. If Israel oversaw the social services in the region and gave them funding for a bit, do you think that the moderates might have a chance to gain power?

Yup, you hit the nail on the head there. That is exactly why Hamas won, on the promises of social services. But what actually happened was that sanctions were tightened even more, making their lives worse.

Now the only thing that Hamas has going for them is their promise to fight Israel to the bitter end. And unfortunately, that understandably appeals to the Palestinians. (You can't really blame them though)

And pingpong, yeah Arafat was a damned fool. He turned down the best deal ever for the Palestinians. I'm not sure offhand but I think it was at the Camp David Accords, where the Palestinians were offered the east-half of Jerusalem. I still cannot believe that they rejected such a good deal, considering I don't think their going to get an offer so good for a long time.

pingpong12 · Feb 1, 2009

the plo were no angels as they instigated a whole civil war in lebanon that lasted 30 years, but someone has to push the israelis to also stop building these settlements. Its almost as if the israelis want this war to keep going as they keep building more and more settlements. This is a colonization effort and it seems like something a dictator would do knowing he has the noose around the neck of a defensless opponent who has cried in vain only to see the western community hypocritically let this go for years upon years.

If this were reversed and the palestinians were building settlements on israeli land you all know how the media would respond and the christian rightwing here that influences the gop now.

democracynow · Feb 5, 2009

Pingping, are you kidding me? That is the most rediculously whack conspiracy job I have ever heard. You probably don't think we landed on the moon either.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is here and it's here to stay. The Palestinians need to accept that fact and stop lobbing rockets. When they do that, the peace process can start. It is 100% their choice.

myp · Feb 5, 2009

democracynow said:
The fact of the matter is that Israel is here and it's here to stay. The Palestinians need to accept that fact and stop lobbing rockets. When they do that, the peace process can start. It is 100% their choice.

I disagree with that. It is not 100% Palestine's choice because both sides have to work together and compromise.

The Parakeet · Feb 5, 2009

It would certainly help if they really rose up and threw off Hamas' control though. 77% voted them into power. I know that they had their reasons for it, but it certainly didn't help them in the path to peace.

Can't really expect Israel to just take it on the chin and walk away. Just bad all around.

omej · Feb 5, 2009

Sooner or later Israel is going to have to suck up and come to the table. There are two simple facts:

Israel is here to stay.
Hamas and/or other organizations like it are here to stay as long as some kind of reparations are given.

Israel refuses to negotiate and and Hamas refuses to honor cease fires. It's just never ending squabble.

The Parakeet · Feb 5, 2009

That is true. I think that Israel needs to take a step back from their aggression, they have a right to defend themselves, but they should know that these operations only create more hostility.

Like I said above, the best thing that they could do is provide fair social services to the area. That would remove a lot of the draw to Hamas. Then it would just be a small insurgency that they'd have to deal with. Surgical strikes could be more effective, they wouldn't be as free to move throughout the population, and they'd quickly be viewed as a barrier to the region's prosperity and hopefully rejected.

Ah...if only things worked like that in the real world.

pingpong12 · Feb 25, 2009

democracynow said:
Pingping, are you kidding me? That is the most rediculously whack conspiracy job I have ever heard. You probably don't think we landed on the moon either.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is here and it's here to stay. The Palestinians need to accept that fact and stop lobbing rockets. When they do that, the peace process can start. It is 100% their choice.

How can you have peace when soon there will be no more palestinian land left to make a peace treaty for. Democracynow, you really havent read much about whats going on there have you. This is what is making the conflict go on and on.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg Remember, this map was from 2006 and there have been many more settlements added since then, plus the israeli government pays the settlers 20,000 bucks just to move in. Wow, now this is a financial deal that will really encourage the settlers to abandon those settlements. Its a game of patience. The more they wait, the more of their land becomes no longer their land.

This is a United nations poster showing all the israeli settlements on internationally recognized palestinian land.

I guess this is also a figment of our imagination democracy now????????

Im just gonna keep trying to present facts until you finally admit this

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

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