Mosque proposal near Ground Zero

obtuseobserver said:

old... sure

clever? well, after the goose story I've come around... sure

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• Remember that Dunkin Donuts commercial that was pulled because people thought that Racheal Ray's scarf looked like a keffiyeh? Yeah, by people I meant Gellar and the like.
• She defended Ranovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic, two of the convicted war criminals behind the Bosnian genocide.
• She thinks Obama is a bastard lovechild of Malcom X

• Featured speaker at European Neo-Nazi conference, also attended by Gellar. (extremely ironic, considering they are both Jewish)
• Joined a genocidal Facebook group (later claimed he was "duped" into joining it.

• Started Campus Watch, an organization that monitors what professors and teachers across the country are telling their students. They encourage students to submit the names of professors who are too pro-arab or anti-israel. A few years ago they published a list of professors and their contact information, which resulted in the professors getting harassed.

omeythehomie said:

The amount of people who are actually offended by it's proximity to Ground Zero are few and far in between.

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obtuseobserver said:

Do you live in a cave?

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/New-Yorkers-Oppose-Ground-Zero-Mosque-Poll-97602569.html

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011799,00.html

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...10/20_favor_mosque_near_ground_zero_54_oppose

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time...ero-mosque-blooomberg-approval-at-5-year-low/

opposition to the mosque is substantial whether it is justified or not

'Ground Zero Mosque' Imam: America Killed More Innocents Than Al Qaeda: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...osque-imam-america-killed-innocents-al-qaeda/

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AK_ID said:

Very substantial, and perhaps for good reason. It appears that the peaceful imam is not such a big fan of the U.S. as his media supporters would like us to believe. Reminds me a bit of the Rev. Wright.


'Ground Zero Mosque' Imam: America Killed More Innocents Than Al Qaeda

The controversial imam at the center of the debate over the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero says his goal is to create coalitions across the religious divide, but during a 2005 conference in Australia, he said America may be worse than Al Qaeda. "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims," said Imam Fiesal Abdul Rauf, speaking at the Bob Hawke Prime Ministerial Center during a question and answer session dedicated to what sponsors say was a dialogue to improve relations between America and the Muslim world.
"You may remember that the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations," said Rauf, who called himself a spokesman for Islam.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...osque-imam-america-killed-innocents-al-qaeda/

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AK_ID said:

Very substantial, and perhaps for good reason. It appears that the peaceful imam is not such a big fan of the U.S. as his media supporters would like us to believe. Reminds me a bit of the Rev. Wright.


'Ground Zero Mosque' Imam: America Killed More Innocents Than Al Qaeda

The controversial imam at the center of the debate over the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero says his goal is to create coalitions across the religious divide, but during a 2005 conference in Australia, he said America may be worse than Al Qaeda. "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims," said Imam Fiesal Abdul Rauf, speaking at the Bob Hawke Prime Ministerial Center during a question and answer session dedicated to what sponsors say was a dialogue to improve relations between America and the Muslim world.
"You may remember that the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations," said Rauf, who called himself a spokesman for Islam.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...osque-imam-america-killed-innocents-al-qaeda/

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omeythehomie said:

Except that this Wright is endorsed by two Presidents and on the payroll for the State Department, eh?

By the way - can you actually offer any evidence that refutes that? Because I feel I should mention stating that does not make you anti american. That's like me saying all of our early settlers killed and massacred Native Americas makes me hate America.

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David said:

You missing a vary big point, it's true. If he had used any other group (preferably non-Muslim) you'd likely be saying that it's true and we need to improve. Since he used an extremist Muslim organization, however, you decide he's anti-American and pro-terrorism (I'm not saying it's on prepose but it's the blunt truth). Tell me, if he pointed out the many genocides we committed and said that it's proportionally worse then Dafar, would you actually be saying he supports the Sudanese Gov't? Maybe you would but I doubt it.

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AK_ID said:

I can only speak for myself, but I've committed no genocides. Which ones have you committed? "We" is a big word.

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David said:

And you know full well what I mean by we. So are you going to challenge my point or can I take this as a concession?

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AK_ID said:

Never assume a concession. For that matter, never assume anything. Your genocide comment is akin to asking a man under oath if he's stopped beating his wife and expecting a yes or no answer. Before you accuse me of genocide, present your evidence, David.

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Thank you. That's a very important and excellent question. The answer is it is being done. The broader community is in fact criticising and condemning actions of terrorism that are being done in the name of Islam. I just came from a conference in Jordan, Amman where there were over 170 leading Muslim scholars from almost every part of the Muslim world, including some of the most important names like Sheikh Tantawi of Egypt, Sheikh Ali Gomaa, who is the Chief Mufti of Egypt, the Chief Mufti of Jordan, the Sheikh Al-Qaradawi, who is a very very well known Islamic jurist, highly regarded all over the Muslim world. They included fatwas obtained from people like ..... Istani who could not attend but also issued a fatwa condemning acts of terrorism and stating that the attribution of infidel to others is not something that should be done and is outside of the ethics of Islam.

Islamic law, the text of Islam, the Koran is quite explicit on describing Christians and Jews as people of the book, and throughout Islamic history even Islamic scholars in India have actually included Hindus as being people of the book because Hindus were not yet involved - were not part of the society, of Arabic society, at the time of the prophet.

The complexity arises, sir, from the fact that - from political problems and the history of the politics between the West and the Muslim world. We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. You may remember that the US lead sanction against Iraq lead to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it.

What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically, is the fact that the West has not been cognisant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world. It is a difficult subject to discuss with Western audiences but it is one that must be pointed out and must be raised.

How many of you have seen the documentary: Fahrenheit 911? The vast majority - at least half here. Do you remember the scene of the Iraqi woman whose house was bombed and she was just screaming, "What have they done." Now, I don't know, you don't know Arabic but in Arabic it was extremely powerful. Her house was gone. Her husband, I think, was killed. What wrong did he do? I found myself weeping when I watched that scene and I imagined myself if I were a 15-year old nephew of this deceased man, what would I have felt?

Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on a paper but when the collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?

So I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain. Half a million Iraqi - there's a sense in the Arab and Muslim world that the European world and Western world is just - does not care about our lives or human lives. There's a perception in much of the Arab world and the Muslim world that the issue is about race. That the Palestinian Israeli issue is less about religion than it is about race because about 25 per cent or more of the Palestinians or the Arabs are Christian. Many people in the West are unaware that Palestinians are not uniformally Muslim.

There is a large number of Arab Christians but they are not regarded as being equal. These issues have to be looked at, have to be recognised, have to be addressed and have to be solved. And this is why in our initiative we have urged a resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict as being number one on the list of things that need to be done because you address this problem and a whole host of problems will be addressed automatically.

How many of you have read the book: The Tipping Point? Are you familiar with that book? It is a fascinating book. I strongly recommend it. It talks about, and a very lovely example, there are many examples that I don't remember, about crime in New York City and how just the removal of graffiti on the subways, New York City subways, reduced crime in New York City. Now, how would you argue the link between graffiti on the walls of the subway and crime? It's hard to determine but in fact it was proven to be so.

It is much more evident to many people what the resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict will do, and as Tony Blair is urging, urging, the resolution of this crisis and the lethargy with which the Bush administration has been actually engaged in trying to resolve this crisis amplifies the perception, in the Arab and Muslim world, that our pain is not heard. Our anguish is not heard. And simple things like when President Bush went to Iraq on Thanksgiving to address the United States troops based in Iraq, he did not speak at all to the Iraqi people.

He could have left a taped message addressing the Iraqi street congratulating them on removing a tyrant that they all wanted to have removed, and saying, you know: I have asked Congress to allot 70 billion dollars of which I'm hoping to have so much for education. Speak to the people. He does this every year in the United States. Imagine if he came to this country and there were US troops stationed here, spoke to them, didn't speak to the Australian people. How would you feel?

How many of you have seen the documentary: The Fog of War? It is an important documentary in which Robert McNamara was interviewed and it's a documentary which is supported by 11 or 12 - I think 11 lessons, if I'm not mistaken - and the first lesson he points out is empathise with the other side. The number one thing that we need on the part of the West is to empathise. To see yourselves from the eyes of the other.

If it's a man who wants to have a wonderful relationship with a woman, you have to see how you look from the eyes of a woman. If you are a white man seeking to deal in Australia with the Aborigines, you have to learn to look at yourself from the eyes of the Aborigines, and you will see things that you cannot see otherwise. The West needs to begin to see themselves through the eyes of the Arab and Muslim world, and when you do you will see the predicament that exists within the Muslim community.

I'm not saying this to condone. Acts like the London bombing are completely against Islamic law. Suicide bombing, completely against Islamic law, completely, 100 per cent. But the facts of the matter is that people, I have discovered, are more motivated by emotion than by logic. If their emotions are in one place and their logic is behind, their emotions will drive their decisions more often than not, and therefore we need to address the emotional state of people and the extent to which those emotions are shaped by things that we can control and we can shape, this is how we will shape a better future. Is that hand still up there?

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AK_ID said:

Geez, someone mentioned Darfur up yonder. Is that the genocide you're talking about? It wasn't me.

If you're trying to accuse Americans at large of acts of genocide against Native Americans, your facts aren't straight, although we did commit come acts of atrocity against those folks. The same can be said in reverse. My first wife was by BIA standards a Native American, and I certainly never committed any crimes of inhumanity against her -- I supported the lovely lady until she died from breast cancer in 2002, even though we'd been divorced for many years, and she'd been ordered to support myself and our children (see the other thread). Nor did any member of my family ever own slaves during the past 300 years, to the best of my knowledge. There are more Native Americans alive today than at the time of European discovery of this continent. Not many Indians would like to return to pre-contact status, just as not many African descendants would be happy returning to their lands of origin today.

David, you flabbergast me with your unfounded statements. How in the heck can I answer your assumptions of genocide if you're not willing to state them clearly? What do they teach kids in school these days, anyway?

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AK_ID said:

Aha! At last you're making sense, sort of (chalk it up to my old farthood for not understanding you earlier).

I guess we have killed more Muslims than the other way around, since the beginning of this war. Thank God and Allah and the Great Spirit for that. Generally, in war the idea is to win. Winning requires some amount of suffering for the other side.

Oh, and it's Darfur, not Dafar. The U.S. has committed no genocide there. You might need to research the issue a bit more. Those folks are killing one another. This is nothing new in that part of the world.

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AK_ID said:

Okey dokey, then what genocidal acts are you discussing? Plainspokenness must be a lost art.

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