Private prisons- a bad idea?

myp · Jun 22, 2012

I was never fond of the lobby. And stories like this are just horrible:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/n...tml?_r=2&gwh=4A414A96EFE935D227FF0D427E211C20

mogur · Jun 22, 2012

Corporations are corrupt. When a private company profits from the misery of others, we suffer. Because we ARE the others. The United States of America, the land of the free, and the home of the brave, incarcerates 743 people per 100,000. Russia has the second highest rate (577 per 100,000), followed by Rwanda (561 per 100,000). At year-end 2007 the United States had less than 5% of the world's population and 23.4% of the world's prison and jail population. (For the math impaired, we jail people five times more than the AVERAGE of the rest of the world.)

By comparison, the incarceration rate in England and Wales in October 2011 was 155 people imprisoned per 100,000 residents; the rate for Norway in May 2010 was 71 inmates per 100,000; Netherlands in April 2010 was 94 per 100,000; Australia in June 2010 was 133 per 100,000; and New Zealand in October 2010 was 203 per 100,000.

Those commie Europeans are lax, we are proud that we are ahead of Russia and Rwanda. There's no room for being ashamed of jailing the scum, since we obviously have way, way more scum than the rest of the world. Why is that?

Wait for it... yes it just may be that we are uptight, provincial protectors of the rights of the corporations that are now being allowed to incarcerate their enemies. The founding fathers didn't have corporations to rail against, but they did do their best to try to protect individuals from the interests of big business. Now that corporations are individuals, we are subordinate to them, since only a handful of individuals have the economic wherewithal to challenge them. Exactly what the founders were concerned about.

Should evil people be incarcerated? Of course. But who gets to decide who is evil? Obviously the US has abdicated that decision to private, money-centered interests. It is my humble opinion that it is best handled by people that have ALL our interests in mind. Your opinion may vary.

myp · Jun 22, 2012

I am not a fan of the corporation vs. individual argument. At the heart of it corporations (whether or not they should be considered as individuals in political election fundraising aside) are made of people- they are made of many usually hard-working and smart people from the janitors all the way up to executives- they are also made of shareholders including many everyday investors and moreso many everyday people who have pension or retirement plans that invest in those corporations. Furthermore, corporations are not one group just as unions are not one group. Corporate interests do not align- what is good for one corporation often is not good for others. In the case of something where special interests buys privileges, arguably what is going on here (although another possibility here is the real fiscal burden on states because of stupid spending in the past), no one wins other than the special interests group- that includes all other corporations.

That is my general take on things. In this case specifically, I would say the prison lobby is at fault but moreso the politicians and past politicians who allowed this or forced this because of big spending in the past.

Either way, blame will not solve anything. One of the things I would support is to rally for a change in Federal drug policy- a lot of those incarcerated (and one of the reasons the US has such a high rate) are due to drug usage crimes. With that, states like NJ need to keep pushing against the special interests that cost them so much money (unions, corporate interests, etc.) and keep policing as part of the government.

mogur · Jun 22, 2012

PS You may wonder why I think that private interest in profiting from incarceration would influence the sacrosanct judicial system, this link may be a clue.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
and this.....
http://publicampaign.org/reports/unholyalliance
and this.....
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/...ompanies-boost-incarceration-rates-for-profit
and this......
http://www.caught.net/incarcerationRate.PDF

my fingers are tired, if you can't figure out that we are totally out of line with this crap, then I can't help convince you with more typing, but think about it... are we incarcerating the evil for reason and the rest for profit?

mogur · Jun 22, 2012

myp said:
Either way, blame will not solve anything

Agreed. I used to own a corporation, and I don't think I am to blame for anything other than myself. But, the fact the definition of a corporation is to protect the individual from corporate responsibility, should cause those that fondle personal responsibility to take pause. As a corporation, I had my personal assets protected, while I could take any risk I cared to with my 'corporate assets'. Not that I did, but I was just a small banana. If I had billions and a desire to incarcerate juveniles for profit, then I have 'Citizens United' to cover my ass.

And if I was Massey Energy, I might buy a judicial election to put a state Supreme Justice in place to turn around a civil monetary judgement and allow myself to ignore oversight to the point that 39 hard-working employees lost their lives.

When individual rights apply to corporations without any requirement for personal responsibility, the system is not going to work. Americans are people. Corporations are a legal fabrication.

myp · Jun 22, 2012

mogur said:
Agreed. I used to own a corporation, and I don't think I am to blame for anything other than myself. But, the fact the definition of a corporation is to protect the individual from corporate responsibility, should cause those that fondle personal responsibility to take pause. As a corporation, I had my personal assets protected, while I could take any risk I cared to with my 'corporate assets'. Not that I did, but I was just a small banana. If I had billions and a desire to incarcerate juveniles for profit, then I have 'Citizens United' to cover my ass.

What you are describing is not inherent to the existence of corporations though. It is a side-effect of certain bad policies. I don't think we have a general problem in this country with a horribly misaligned incentive structure for corporations, but there are certainly some instances where we need to change policy to realign incentives into a market based system. There are also certain negative externalities such as systemic risk that need some government action to counter.

mogur · Jun 22, 2012

But if corporations begin to control their own oversight through undue political influence, then where is their regulation? If you think that unfettered corporate behavior is an Ayn Rand thing, then at least I understand, but seriously, if corporations are individuals, where is the 'individual' responsibility? Over-regulation is a mantra of extremists. Thalidomide is a mantra of extremists. Where can sensibility reside?

It certainly isn't more money. It may be in the work ethic that has made this country a global power. The innovation that we used to have. The broadening of the middle class, the education of all, not just the privileged. We are now resting on our laurels. When we decide to take education seriously again, instead of treating it like a social burden, then we might compete again. Right now, the hungry are eating our ass.

myp · Jun 22, 2012

mogur said:
But if corporations begin to control their own oversight through undue political influence, then where is their regulation? If you think that unfettered corporate behavior is an Ayn Rand thing, then at least I understand, but seriously, if corporations are individuals, where is the 'individual' responsibility? Over-regulation is a mantra of extremists. Thalidomide is a mantra of extremists. Where can sensibility reside?

Corporations controlling their own oversight is regulatory capture- it is a market failure. And that often results from ignorance or mis-aligned political incentives- something that I think is one of our bigger underlying problems today. A lot of regulation can actually be handled by the market if it is allowed to work. It is a feedback system and it has checks and balances. What we are left to deal with is negative externalities that the government can tackle- things like pollution, systemic risk, etc.

The extremists are on both sides- the hard-lined anti-corporate sentiment is just as bad as the hard-lined no regulation sentiment. Looking at things objectively and considering costs and benefits on everything would bring us about a long way. Unfortunately, too many people are still stuck in an ideological world.

Private prisons- a bad idea?

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