Since the existence of God depends upon only the evidence of ancient texts of unverifiable provenance, some either disbelieve in God (atheists) or neither affirm nor deny His existence (agnostics). Why doesn't God resolve this by simply and unequivocally appearing in an incontravertible way? Then almost all would believe, and lead righteous lives. Why leave things in a way that gives rise to reasonable doubts?
Question for Christians #2
- Thread starter Patrick
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Yahweh does, just not to everyone. I think it likes the mystery, that and it's a test of fate which showing itself to everyone would defeat.
I don't get that - it's like playing a game - pick door number one or door number two. Guess wrong, you'll go to hell.
Well if the point is faith, then revealing itself would provide knowledge. Faith is belief without knowledge so revealing itself defeats the purpose. Granted it has to reveal itself sometimes, otherwise it's end up like Zeus, even pagans don't think he exists as he' never revealed himself. Yahweh on the other hand has people claiming interactions every year. They may not all be true but it keeps doubt from growing in to many people regardless.
Was it Diogenes the Cynic who said "where there are a thousand faiths, we're likley to be skeptical of them all." Again, it's like pick door number one or door number two: pick the God of Judaeo-Christian heritage, or Hinduism's Ganesh the elephant god?
True but then the Hindu god (they're not really polytheistic) has stood the test of time by actually being associated with every day life.
Anyway my point stands, aside from a few revelations to remain relevant a faith based deity can't just go around showing itself. It is as you say but then that's also the point.
The point was that God would encourage righteous behavior by verifying for all that He exists - and why wouldn't He want to do THAT?
Let's try this again
What reason would God have to verify for all that He exists? His position in the universe isn't changed by how many humans believe in him: we may be the equivalent of a random determining mechanism, and you wouldn't want to muck that up by taking out the random element. The point is that Patrick is an ant as far as God is concerned, so why bother?
What reason would God have to verify for all that He exists? His position in the universe isn't changed by how many humans believe in him: we may be the equivalent of a random determining mechanism, and you wouldn't want to muck that up by taking out the random element. The point is that Patrick is an ant as far as God is concerned, so why bother?
The question is in the Christian context, and according to that theology God certainly DOES "care". The point of verification is obvious - who would continue to sin, who would disbelieve, if there was incontravertible proof? And surely God is not indifferent to sin and disbelief.
Because this life is a test. Those that believe and have faith, pass. If God resolves the issue then there is no test.
Why there is a test is unknown since we don't know Gods mind and motivation.
However, even if God showed himself in all his glory, there will still be people that will not believe. They would say it was a trick, or space aliens, or mass delusion.
Jesus lived, performed miracles, fullfilled prophecy, and many did not believe. Even some of the 12 disciples had times of doubt (for example, "doubting Thomas").
Or read Mark 10:17-22,
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Here was a man convinced Jesus was a prophet of God and knew the way to Heaven, but the man rejected Jesus answer. 18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Why have a "test" at all? It starts to sound like a game.
But other than a few, many would believe. The ones who still didn't would have been given a fair chance.
God dose not make undeniable evidence of his existance, for a few reasons. First, it would render all acts of faith null and void. Second it is not nessacary, through faith, and it is hard, you can find personal proof. Those of us who know God have our proof, and those who don't can follow a path to gain it.
Also disbelievers put such a vastly impossable set of cercumstances on proof. Some I have heard require a cartoon representation of a bearded man riding clowds around. My proof comes from the fact that things exist, and if you strip the time line back to the beginning of causality, say big bang theory, then something had to set it in motion. I have a hard time believing that it just decided to exist one day.
Third and most important, faith is erned, through suffering and struggle, strife and doubt. I was an atheist once and the trail to a follower of christ was tough and rigorous. Through that struggle you learn what a true gift you have been given.
Also disbelievers put such a vastly impossable set of cercumstances on proof. Some I have heard require a cartoon representation of a bearded man riding clowds around. My proof comes from the fact that things exist, and if you strip the time line back to the beginning of causality, say big bang theory, then something had to set it in motion. I have a hard time believing that it just decided to exist one day.
Third and most important, faith is erned, through suffering and struggle, strife and doubt. I was an atheist once and the trail to a follower of christ was tough and rigorous. Through that struggle you learn what a true gift you have been given.
Again why does faith have to enter the picture? It makes it sound like a game: I'll give you no proof I exist, but if you don't believe anyway, you're in big trouble. And other religions demand faith. If all do so, and none offer proof, which is one to pick? And if you guess wrong - eternal damnation.
Let's hear your proof.
I used to buy that, but the refutation is that there could have been an infinite sequence of events stretching back, therefore there need be no first cause. Further, Stephen Hawking has now claimed that the law of gravitation shows that the universe (the big bang) could have started spontaneously without cause.
I'm with Patrick on the blind faith bit. I had my poof (and if it was tangible I'd share it) but I find myself agreeing with atheists more often then not because faith for the sake of faith is just stupid. A test without questions, hints and/or a few pre-answered questions to give you an idea of what kind of test it is isn't a test. It's a guessing game. A meaningful life can't be based on what amounts to a game of 'What number am I thinking of?'.
first my proof of course it is esoterric and personal, God spoke to me. I can not prove that to you, because he spoke to me. Like I said it was personal proof.
The reason faith is nessacary is because through struggle comes wisdom. Ever heard the statement "if it was easy everybody would do it." Its hard to explain to someone outside of faith. Whatever the reason, that is the way it is, very similar to all things in life if you want this career you have to study at that school. Why? If that is the impass you face, it would be best to let that go and struggle through or become atheist.
Sorry, I know its hard but that is just the way it is.
I am glad you posted this question, you really made me think.
Earlyer you asked what is the right religion, and why dose not following it get you condemed.
You really asked a mouthful there. First religions aren't wrong, and only post biblical doctorine has stated such. Religion is mearly a vehicle to find faith. It works for some but not all.
I absolutly believe in God and Jesus but I am not religious. I don't go to church. Churches are not holy microphones of the lord, they are communal gatherings of like minded people who practice similar rituals to express love of God.
I absolutly do not believe that God condems people for being buddists and hindus. God spoke to them that way. And I have never heard a vast majority of any religion refutiate another based on docternal text, but on ritualistic practices.
Make no mistake no religion speaks for God soley
Earlyer you asked what is the right religion, and why dose not following it get you condemed.
You really asked a mouthful there. First religions aren't wrong, and only post biblical doctorine has stated such. Religion is mearly a vehicle to find faith. It works for some but not all.
I absolutly believe in God and Jesus but I am not religious. I don't go to church. Churches are not holy microphones of the lord, they are communal gatherings of like minded people who practice similar rituals to express love of God.
I absolutly do not believe that God condems people for being buddists and hindus. God spoke to them that way. And I have never heard a vast majority of any religion refutiate another based on docternal text, but on ritualistic practices.
Make no mistake no religion speaks for God soley
Sorry to keep on posting but the more I think about your question the more I learn.
I think I have figured out the necessity of faith. Follow me on the metaphore. God dosent want to be simply worshiped, he wants you to want him. Similar to a relation ship with another person. God can't come on too strong, just like the girl you take on the first date. If she said let's get married and have kids, on your first date, she would scare you off. Just like any relationship it takes work, faith, and acceptance.
I don't know if that makes much sence but as I sat and thought about your question and how to answer it that is the idea that came to mind. Just my thoughts based on observation strictly.
Thanks for not letting me get away with the paltry answers I gave. Very good question
I think I have figured out the necessity of faith. Follow me on the metaphore. God dosent want to be simply worshiped, he wants you to want him. Similar to a relation ship with another person. God can't come on too strong, just like the girl you take on the first date. If she said let's get married and have kids, on your first date, she would scare you off. Just like any relationship it takes work, faith, and acceptance.
I don't know if that makes much sence but as I sat and thought about your question and how to answer it that is the idea that came to mind. Just my thoughts based on observation strictly.
Thanks for not letting me get away with the paltry answers I gave. Very good question
faith isn't stupid, you actually need it in your life as an atheist, I presume you are a normal person, with normal wants. Do you ever want a spouse? And if so isn't stepping out on a first date knowing the odds are against you that this will be the one to win your heart stack against you and yet you still through your heart on the line in risk of failure in hopes you may find unconditional love an act of faith?
Faith for faiths sake I agree is stupid, I don't have faith for faiths sake. Well first there is no more believeing in God for me, I know him. Faith was what it took for me to accept something as big as God. Yes absolutly it is hard to believe that God is there when there is no tangable evidance, it is work and it will exhaust you. But I have gained so much from it, that I never had before, for instance, patience, understanding, and compation.
It was quite something for me when I realized (based on biblical literature) that God became man (jesus) showed us how to live and then took the brunt of all sin as we killed him and mocked him.
Okay I know that you don't nessacarily believe in Jesus but think about that for a moment, a person no different from you or better in any way jumps into harms way to push you out from in front of a bus. Imagine that man is wonded or even killed, that is a most generous act, atheist or not, you would be touched by such selflessness right? You would live and make that person known to others, he saved you right.
The above rant is what all religions tell us to strive for, to become the heroic stranger that selflessly casts himself into harms way to save another. Kindness and generosity are the tenents of christianity. Not blind following, God dosent want mindless yes men, he wants people who choose to walk with him despite the desires and misgivings of the world. People who are stronger than those who simply parrot what they are told by theolgians. Three year olds can say what they should do but truly strong men do what they should.
These strong men who "walk the line" so to speak exist in every religion. Christianity, buddisum, they are homosexuals and heterosexuals, males and females, and yes I as a christian know there are also atheists who act with only compassion, understanding and patience, regardless of religion or absence there of they are Gods people
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