The most debated topic....Evar

Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
Again, if you're arguing species, a human zygote/embryo/fetus is, well, human. If you're arguing personhood, then 'aborting' anyone under the age of 6 months is just as valid as as aborting them before birth. A person is human the moment they have human DNA (conception) and they become a fully developed personality at about 6 months after birth.

As I said, :rolleyes: and holes in logic.

I suppose I should just give you this....and leave it at that:

" Every one of us began from a dot. A fertilized egg is roughly the size of the period at the end of this sentence. The momentous meeting of sperm and egg generally occurs in one of the two fallopian tubes. One cell becomes two, two become four, and so on—an exponentiation of base-2 arithmetic. By the tenth day the fertilized egg has become a kind of hollow sphere wandering off to another realm: the womb. It destroys tissue in its path. It sucks blood from capillaries. It bathes itself in maternal blood, from which it extracts oxygen and nutrients. It establishes itself as a kind of parasite on the walls of the uterus.

By the third week, around the time of the first missed menstrual period, the forming embryo is about 2 millimeters long and is developing various body parts. Only at this stage does it begin to be dependent on a rudimentary placenta. It looks a little like a segmented worm.
By the end of the fourth week, it's about 5 millimeters (about 1/5 inch) long. It's recognizable now as a vertebrate, its tube-shaped heart is beginning to beat, something like the gill arches of a fish or an amphibian become conspicuous, and there is a pronounced tail. It looks rather like a newt or a tadpole. This is the end of the first month after conception.
By the fifth week, the gross divisions of the brain can be distinguished. What will later develop into eyes are apparent, and little buds appear—on their way to becoming arms and legs.
By the sixth week, the embryo is 13 millimeteres (about ½ inch) long. The eyes are still on the side of the head, as in most animals, and the reptilian face has connected slits where the mouth and nose eventually will be.
By the end of the seventh week, the tail is almost gone, and sexual characteristics can be discerned (although both sexes look female). The face is mammalian but somewhat piglike.
By the end of the eighth week, the face resembles that of a primate but is still not quite human. Most of the human body parts are present in their essentials. Some lower brain anatomy is well-developed. The fetus shows some reflex response to delicate stimulation.
By the tenth week, the face has an unmistakably human cast. It is beginning to be possible to distinguish males from females. Nails and major bone structures are not apparent until the third month.
By the fourth month, you can tell the face of one fetus from that of another. Quickening is most commonly felt in the fifth month. The bronchioles of the lungs do not begin developing until approximately the sixth month, the alveoli still later.
So, if only a person can be murdered, when does the fetus attain personhood? When its face becomes distinctly human, near the end of the first trimester? When the fetus becomes responsive to stimuli--again, at the end of the first trimester? When it becomes active enough to be felt as quickening, typically in the middle of the second trimester? When the lungs have reached a stage of development sufficient that the fetus might, just conceivably, be able to breathe on its own in the outside air?
The trouble with these particular developmental milestones is not just that they're arbitrary. More troubling is the fact that none of them involves uniquely human characteristics--apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human.
Other animals have advantages over us--in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought--characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That's how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are.
Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain--principally in the top layers of the convoluted "gray matter" called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn't begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy--the sixth month.
By placing harmless electrodes on a subject's head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skull. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the fetus until about the 30th week of pregnancy--near the beginning of the third trimester. Fetuses younger than this--however alive and active they may be--lack the necessary brain architecture. They cannot yet think.
Acquiescing in the killing of any living creature, especially one that might later become a baby, is troublesome and painful. But we've rejected the extremes of "always" and "never," and this puts us--like it or not--on the slippery slope. If we are forced to choose a developmental criterion, then this is where we draw the line: when the beginning of characteristically human thinking becomes barely possible.
It is, in fact, a very conservative definition: Regular brain waves are rarely found in fetuses. More research would help… If we wanted to make the criterion still more stringent, to allow for occasional precocious fetal brain development, we might draw the line at six months. This, it so happens, is where the Supreme Court drew it in 1973--although for completely different reasons.
Its decision in the case of Roe v. Wade changed American law on abortion. It permits abortion at the request of the woman without restriction in the first trimester and, with some restrictions intended to protect her health, in the second trimester. It allows states to forbid abortion in the third trimester, except when there's a serious threat to the life or health of the woman. In the 1989 Webster decision, the Supreme Court declined explicitly to overturn Roe v. Wade but in effect invited the 50 state legislatures to decide for themselves.
What was the reasoning in Roe v. Wade? There was no legal weight given to what happens to the children once they are born, or to the family. Instead, a woman's right to reproductive freedom is protected, the court ruled, by constitutional guarantees of privacy. But that right is not unqualified. The woman's guarantee of privacy and the fetus's right to life must be weighed--and when the court did the weighing' priority was given to privacy in the first trimester and to life in the third. The transition was decided not from any of the considerations we have been dealing with so far…--not when "ensoulment" occurs, not when the fetus takes on sufficient human characteristics to be protected by laws against murder. Instead, the criterion adopted was whether the fetus could live outside the mother. This is called "viability" and depends in part on the ability to breathe. The lungs are simply not developed, and the fetus cannot breathe--no matter how advanced an artificial lung it might be placed in—until about the 24th week, near the start of the sixth month. This is why Roe v. Wade permits the states to prohibit abortions in the last trimester. It's a very pragmatic criterion.
If the fetus at a certain stage of gestation would be viable outside the womb, the argument goes, then the right of the fetus to life overrides the right of the woman to privacy. But just what does "viable" mean? Even a full-term newborn is not viable without a great deal of care and love. There was a time before incubators, only a few decades ago, when babies in their seventh month were unlikely to be viable. Would aborting in the seventh month have been permissible then? After the invention of incubators, did aborting pregnancies in the seventh month suddenly become immoral? What happens if, in the future, a new technology develops so that an artificial womb can sustain a fetus even before the sixth month by delivering oxygen and nutrients through the blood--as the mother does through the placenta and into the fetal blood system? We grant that this technology is unlikely to be developed soon or become available to many. But if it were available, does it then become immoral to abort earlier than the sixth month, when previously it was moral? A morality that depends on, and changes with, technology is a fragile morality; for some, it is also an unacceptable morality.
"
 
Aug 2012
311
41
North Texas
If a developing life has human DNA, it's human. If your CHEEK cells have human DNA, there human cheek cells. As I said, this line of argument is biologically illogical.

You're getting closer: "a developing life". Yes, it's human, but it's still not a human being. It's developing.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
You're getting closer: "a developing life". Yes, it's human, but it's still not a human being. It's developing.

So is everyone below the age of 24. ;) As I said before, the 'bundle of cells' argument falls apart once you stop to consider that's all anyone is. It's a difference of numbers, nothing more.

Edit: tecoyah, mind reformating your post? All the failed html code make me unwilling to read it. lol
 
Aug 2012
311
41
North Texas
So is everyone below the age of 24. ;) As I said before, the 'bundle of cells' argument falls apart once you stop to consider that's all anyone is. It's a difference of numbers, nothing more.

Edit: tecoyah, mind reformating your post? All the failed html code make me unwilling to read it. lol

My understanding is that any viable baby and older is a human being. A zygote or blastocyst is not.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
My understanding is that any viable baby and older is a human being. A zygote or blastocyst is not.

human being -- Encyclopedia Britannica

According to this, a Human Being is a human that has achieved personhood. Again, that means 'aborting' anyone under the age of 6 months is valid if that's going to be your argument. And if you plan on arguing viability, any fetus, however undeveloped, is viable so long as the proper medical care is available. It's insane (in a good way) how young preemies can be now.

In any case, pretty much any pro-lifer is going to argue biology (though the religious fundies might not be very articulate), not personhood so arguing viability and personhood isn't really going to convince anyone.
 
Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
Pretty much my Opinion on this.

All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human.
Other animals have advantages over us--in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought--characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That's how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are.
Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain--principally in the top layers of the convoluted "gray matter" called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn't begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy--the sixth month.
By placing harmless electrodes on a subject's head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skull. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the fetus until about the 30th week of pregnancy--near the beginning of the third trimester. Fetuses younger than this--however alive and active they may be--lack the necessary brain architecture. They cannot yet think.
Acquiescing in the killing of any living creature, especially one that might later become a baby, is troublesome and painful. But we've rejected the extremes of "always" and "never," and this puts us--like it or not--on the slippery slope. If we are forced to choose a developmental criterion, then this is where we draw the line: when the beginning of characteristically human thinking becomes barely possible.
It is, in fact, a very conservative definition: Regular brain waves are rarely found in fetuses. More research would help… If we wanted to make the criterion still more stringent, to allow for occasional precocious fetal brain development, we might draw the line at six months. This, it so happens, is where the Supreme Court drew it in 1973--although for completely different reasons.
Its decision in the case of Roe v. Wade changed American law on abortion. It permits abortion at the request of the woman without restriction in the first trimester and, with some restrictions intended to protect her health, in the second trimester. It allows states to forbid abortion in the third trimester, except when there's a serious threat to the life or health of the woman. In the 1989 Webster decision, the Supreme Court declined explicitly to overturn Roe v. Wade but in effect invited the 50 state legislatures to decide for themselves.

Biological argument...yes. Incorrect assessment....No.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie


Biological argument...yes. Incorrect assessment....No.

As I said, a fully developed personality doesn't form until about 6 months after birth. If you want to make personhood the defining barrier between abortion and not, all newborns are valid targets as well. This is why the personhood argument fails, you have to arbitrarily chose a point where a developing human doesn't quite look human, call in 'a bunch of cells' and pretend you have a scientifically valid argument. It doesn't work.

A human forms at conception, a human person forms around 6 months old. If you want to make an objective scientific argument, those are the only 2 valid data points. Anything else is arbitrary and emotion based.
 
Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
As I said, a fully developed personality doesn't form until about 6 months after birth. If you want to make personhood the defining barrier between abortion and not, all newborns are valid targets as well. This is why the personhood argument fails, you have to arbitrarily chose a point where a developing human doesn't quite look human, call in 'a bunch of cells' and pretend you have a scientifically valid argument. It doesn't work.

A human forms at conception, a human person forms around 6 months old. If you want to make an objective scientific argument, those are the only 2 valid data points. Anything else is arbitrary and emotion based.

I believe it was your commentary that garnered my reply....specifically because you played the personhood card.
 
Aug 2012
311
41
North Texas
human being -- Encyclopedia Britannica

According to this, a Human Being is a human that has achieved personhood. Again, that means 'aborting' anyone under the age of 6 months is valid if that's going to be your argument. And if you plan on arguing viability, any fetus, however undeveloped, is viable so long as the proper medical care is available. It's insane (in a good way) how young preemies can be now.

Your link says nothing about "personhood" much less anything about "aborting" six month old babies. Please provide salient facts next time.

As for viability, it varies a bit as this link shows, but by US law it's considered 28 weeks.
 
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