The Proposition To End Legal Age

I've never heard of this before but it's an interesting idea. There would be problems with it though. I mean you could have a fairly smart 10 year old that could regurgitate information learned in a driving handbook but that wouldn't necessarily mean they'd have the body strength, mental focus, intuition etc. to actually drive. Maybe they could drive and pass their test on a clear, sunny, sunday afternoon - but on a icy, rainy, dark day - they may not have those other skills that come with age.

I agree though, there are plenty of 18 year olds that don't have those skills and shouldn't be driving either.

I think the system works as it is now because it focuses on the majority of people. It would be difficult to implement and rewrite the laws to include a small minority of child geniuses.


Then you have the problems such as the legal age of sexual consent. Should a 10 year old child genius who could explain the anatomy of sex better than most adults be able to choose to have sex and get pregnant?

Every society has an age or time when a boy is considered a man (and girl/woman). It used to be primitive and gruesome tribal test.

In the day and time of civilized society, age is the best determination fact of when somebody should be able to do X. (and this taking into account that people do indeed mature slower/faster than others). It would be too difficult to do things on a case by case basis. However, I DO believe it should be one age for everything. Not 16, 18, and 21. Pick one year.

There actually is an age when our brain is mature. One of the weekly news magazines did a big special report on it. Apparently our brain grows over a period of years, and then actually 'prunes' itself, getting rid of unneeded cells and synapses, and then proceeds to grow again. It does this several times, ending the last growth period at age 25. That is when our brain in mature.

The article pointed out that in all the rituals of all the societies in the world, the only one that has ever pegged maturity at 25 was the insurance industry. Rates are higher for anyone under 25, and that was decided based on statistics, rather than any scientific research.

I don't really see any benefit to this. I don't believe its that hard for a kid to get emancipated from their parents if they really want to do so. There are plenty of accelerated programs too.

There are physical limitations in the form of height, reflexes, eyesight, maturity, etc. for anyone under the age of 15 to drive. After that point, you can usually get a learner's license.

It would also be a huge pain to personally evaluate everyone. Any restriction is going to be arbitrary by its nature. Some are pointless. I think the drinking age needs to drop back to 18 and I think all gambling should go to 18.

*Curious - Didn't see your post at first. Slipped in before me (I had the page open for awhile). Yeah. That's right. The 18 year level is usually good enough though. Especially since most 16-18 year olds are ready for a lot of responsibility. Holding them back until they are 25 would just slow down their hands on learning.

I didn't mean to imply that people should be considered minors until they are 25. But it is interesting that they are not, physically fully mature until they are 25. That's actually past the prime time to bear children for women. That's interesting as far as evolution goes, having the healthiest time to start raising children occur before the brain is fully mature.

Although it is true that some people are more advanced in a number of respects than others of the same age, we need to simplify this for many reasons. Think some countries differ on the minimum age that a person can get a driver's license, or is allowed to vote. But it is important that these are set, and then adhered to. Where it could perhaps be disputed is when someone who is "under age" committed a crime for which people would like him/her to be tried as an adult. But that would obviously be an extreme situation and can be sorted out at a trial.

Bang on the money

Maybe they should concentrate on making your driving ability harder scrutinized before lic3ense is issued and raise the cost of Car insurance for new drivers

Delta said:

I've never heard of this before but it's an interesting idea. There would be problems with it though. I mean you could have a fairly smart 10 year old that could regurgitate information learned in a driving handbook but that wouldn't necessarily mean they'd have the body strength, mental focus, intuition etc. to actually drive. Maybe they could drive and pass their test on a clear, sunny, sunday afternoon - but on a icy, rainy, dark day - they may not have those other skills that come with age.

I agree though, there are plenty of 18 year olds that don't have those skills and shouldn't be driving either.

I think the system works as it is now because it focuses on the majority of people. It would be difficult to implement and rewrite the laws to include a small minority of child geniuses.


Then you have the problems such as the legal age of sexual consent. Should a 10 year old child genius who could explain the anatomy of sex better than most adults be able to choose to have sex and get pregnant?

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Delta said:

I agree though, there are plenty of 18 year olds that don't have those skills and shouldn't be driving either.

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There are plenty of adults who fit this category too ...

How quickly we forget!

So in Oregon, they changed the rules and a sixteen year old can get a license, but they can't have anyone but an older family member in the car for the first few months. Zero friends riding around, laughing and distracting them.

Now, in the Midwest, many many moons ago, the police would look the other way when they saw a young guy driving the family pickup on the road if he was going between fields (I am talking farm country). The age of 12 was a rough starting point for driving on the farm.

I can remember getting my drivers license and I thought it was a major ticket to freedom and maybe even a girl friend. I would have said anything, passed any test, even if it was in some obscure language like Sanskrit, if necessary.

So the idea of a skills assessment is pretty good, but while a rough guide of age is unfair to some, it protects the majority. And in the Philippines you can't get a license until you are 18. Now, I won't say that really slows the kids down much, providing they can get access to a car or, more likely, a scooter. But the idea is they need to be old enough to pay for their mistakes if they make them.

I rather like that idea.

Sparks said:

So in Oregon, they changed the rules and a sixteen year old can get a license, but they can't have anyone but an older family member in the car for the first few months. Zero friends riding around, laughing and distracting them.

Now, in the Midwest, many many moons ago, the police would look the other way when they saw a young guy driving the family pickup on the road if he was going between fields (I am talking farm country). The age of 12 was a rough starting point for driving on the farm.

I can remember getting my drivers license and I thought it was a major ticket to freedom and maybe even a girl friend. I would have said anything, passed any test, even if it was in some obscure language like Sanskrit, if necessary.

So the idea of a skills assessment is pretty good, but while a rough guide of age is unfair to some, it protects the majority. And in the Philippines you can't get a license until you are 18. Now, I won't say that really slows the kids down much, providing they can get access to a car or, more likely, a scooter. But the idea is they need to be old enough to pay for their mistakes if they make them.

I rather like that idea.

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Probably would be practical to think of 18-year olds as adults and no longer kids. They are probably already that way at 16, but perhaps there is a stronger likelihood that adulthood would be firmly established by 18. I find it senseless to have someone at 16 given a license provided they are accompanied by an adult. Sort of defeats the whole purpose of getting the license, better then to wait until the real "legal age" kicks in. Or to have the proper license at 16, surely once they have a license they should be able to drive, otherwise they should not have a license.

Sparks said:

So in Oregon, they changed the rules and a sixteen year old can get a license, but they can't have anyone but an older family member in the car for the first few months. Zero friends riding around, laughing and distracting them.

So the idea of a skills assessment is pretty good, but while a rough guide of age is unfair to some, it protects the majority. And in the Philippines you can't get a license until you are 18. Now, I won't say that really slows the kids down much, providing they can get access to a car or, more likely, a scooter. But the idea is they need to be old enough to pay for their mistakes if they make them.

I rather like that idea.

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This is similar to what we have in Canada (Ontario anyway) - a graduated licensing. At 16 you get your beginners by taking a written test and can drive only with a parent in the front seat, not after dark, and not on the highway. Then after a year (or 8 months if you take drivers ed.) you do a driving test. If you pass you get your and can drive and can pretty much go anywhere with anyone. Then after another year you take another driving test for your G with the benefits of extra demerit points, lower insurance and a bit of alcohol.

Deanhill, I have to disagree with you. A young woman, a new driver and in a hurry ran a stop light, hitting and doing great physical and mental damage to a friend and co-worker. I am all for having an adult that knows what they are doing sitting beside a young driver and letting them know when they are about to blow it.

So a guy that worked hard all his life, was one of the go to types when you needed something done right, will spend his life slightly better off than a vegetable instead of enjoying a well deserved retirement. The girl spent a few hours in the hospital. I think she should spend a couple of years in jail too, but I'm obviously angry about what happened to a very good guy.

As a young guy, I made way too many mistakes involving motorized whatevers and am lucky I am alive. I am also lucky I never hurt anyone else. I think driving with an adult for a year or two is a good thing and then 1

Sparks said:

Deanhill, I have to disagree with you. A young woman, a new driver and in a hurry ran a stop light, hitting and doing great physical and mental damage to a friend and co-worker. I am all for having an adult that knows what they are doing sitting beside a young driver and letting them know when they are about to blow it.

So a guy that worked hard all his life, was one of the go to types when you needed something done right, will spend his life slightly better off than a vegetable instead of enjoying a well deserved retirement. The girl spent a few hours in the hospital. I think she should spend a couple of years in jail too, but I'm obviously angry about what happened to a very good guy.

As a young guy, I made way too many mistakes involving motorized whatevers and am lucky I am alive. I am also lucky I never hurt anyone else. I think driving with an adult for a year or two is a good thing and then 1

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Perhaps I did not say it well, but what I meant was that people should only receive drivers' licenses when they are 18 years old, and that if they are 16 they should not have drivers' licenses. It is kind'a silly to give them drivers' licenses at 16 years when they are not considered mature enough to drive on their own. I cannot see the point of giving people licenses when they are not mature to drive, to the point of also making a rule that they should be supervised by adults while they are driving. If there is a great need that they should have some sort of opportunity to drive at 16 in a supervised capacity, perhaps it would be better to give them learners' licenses until they are adults at 18 with the rule of course that learners need to be accompanied by adults who are licensed when they are driving.

This would only delay the problem though. Most of the teenagers I knew just drove fairly responsibly with an adult for awhile and took the time to learn how to drive. It was very valuable learning for me. I actually believe that's how most states do it. You have to drive with an adult for the first six months after you pass the learner's permit test. Then you have to pass the actual test to upgrade your license. Under this, you could only have two passengers at a time and not drive after 11 PM (these were the rules anyway...not many people followed them). Then you could get a full license a little later.

The other thing is that a lot of teenagers who would drive recklessly would just do it anyway without a license (I knew a few who did).

It's just nature. Some people will drive well and some will be reckless. You have to start learning at some point. 16 is a pretty good age for most.

slippery when wet

I guess, because I was a bit of a bad boy in this area as a youth, I am somewhat over reactive (not to mention watching some terrible damage done as I mentioned). I drove pretty well with an adult beside me, but once I was on my own, I thought I was effing James Bond or maybe Sterling Moss. Whatever, I was a danger. I didn't kill anyone.

I think that we may split on terminology here. Learner's Permit, Provisional Drivers License, whatever you want to call it. No driving alone or with peers until you are 18.

And mandatory drivers education, which is pretty much true in the States these days, since dad (or mom) get's a break on the insurance if the kid has taken it. Too bad they don't have skid schools too. I haven't taken one, but I watched one back at Portland International Raceway. Cars specially built to skid without turning over. So instructors taught the proper way to deal with a skid. In the Midwest we learned this our first winters snow storm.

But a skid school gives the new driver a feeling on how fast things can go wrong. Youth think they will flip the wheel, touch the brake, and bam ... as quick as you can say "Fast and Furious" they will be out of trouble. Then they find out that what you see on the movie screen is not the same thing as happens on the road. Skid school lets them find that out in controlled circumstances.

With 40 to 50 thousand people getting killed every year on the road, I am surprised they don't do the math and start a lot more serious drivers training.

Sparks said:

I guess, because I was a bit of a bad boy in this area as a youth, I am somewhat over reactive (not to mention watching some terrible damage done as I mentioned). I drove pretty well with an adult beside me, but once I was on my own, I thought I was effing James Bond or maybe Sterling Moss. Whatever, I was a danger. I didn't kill anyone.

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Yea, I was the same way. Drifting is what I got into... drifting in towns on regular streets (this was before Tokyo Drift). Very dangerous, but never an accident so I guess I was either skilled, or very lucky. Grew out of that though.

But a skid school gives the new driver a feeling on how fast things can go wrong. Youth think they will flip the wheel, touch the brake, and bam ... as quick as you can say "Fast and Furious" they will be out of trouble. Then they find out that what you see on the movie screen is not the same thing as happens on the road. Skid school lets them find that out in controlled circumstances.

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Skidding for me is what got me into drifting. My first winter I would constantly slip and slide accidently and I hated not having control... so I began to teach myself how to control the car on snowy roads, then on wet roads, and eventually on dry pavement. I have to say though, it's a very good skill to have. There have been countless times in the winter where I'd be about to spin out, but since I spent my days learning how to control the car, it was easy to get out of.

We have skid schools here, I never took it though. Self-taught I guess you could say. Definitely not a recommendation.

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“Given the existence as uttered forth in the public works of Puncher and Wattmann of a personal God quaquaquaqua with white beard quaquaquaqua outside time without extension who from the heights of divine apathia divine athambia divine aphasia loves us dearly with some exceptions for reasons unknown but time will tell and suffers like the divine Miranda with those who for reasons unknown but time will tell are plunged in torment plunged in fire whose fire flames if that continues and who can doubt it will fire the firmament that is to say blast heaven to hell so blue still and calm so calm with a calm which even though intermittent is better than nothing but not so fast and considering what is more that as a result of the labours left unfinished crowned by the Acacacacademy of Anthropopopometry of Essy-in-Possy of Testew and Cunard it is established beyond all doubt all other doubt than that which clings to the labours of men that as a result of the labours unfinished of Testew and Cunard it is established as hereinafter but not so fast for reasons unknown that as a result of the public works of Puncher and Wattmann it is established beyond all doubt that in view of the labours of Fartov and Belcher left unfinished for reasons unknown of Testew and Cunard left unfinished it is established what many deny that man in Possy of Testew and Cunard that man in Essy that man in short that man in brief in spite of the strides of alimentation and defecation is seen to waste and pine waste and pine and concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown in spite of the strides of physical culture the practice of sports such as tennis football running cycling swimming flying floating riding gliding conating camogie skating tennis of all kinds dying flying sports of all sorts autumn summer winter winter tennis of all kinds hockey of all sorts penicilline and succedanea in a word I resume and concurrently simultaneously for reasons unknown to shrink and dwindle in spite of the tennis I resume flying gliding golf over nine and eighteen holes tennis of all sorts in a word for reasons unknown in Feckham Peckham Fulham Clapham namely concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown but time will tell to shrink and dwindle I resume Fulham Clapham in a word the dead loss per head since the death of Bishop Berkeley being to the tune of one inch four ounce per head approximately by and large more or less to the nearest decimal good measure round figures stark naked in the stockinged feet in Connemara in a word for reasons unknown no matter what matter the facts are there and considering what is more much more grave that in the light of the labours lost of Steinweg and Peterman it appears what is more much more grave that in the light the light the light of the labours lost of Steinweg and Peterman that in the plains in the mountains by the seas by the rivers running water running fire the air is the same and than the earth namely the air and then the earth in the great cold the great dark the air and the earth abode of stones in the great cold alas alas in the year of their Lord six hundred and something the air the earth the sea the earth abode of stones in the great deeps the great cold on sea on land and in the air I resume for reasons unknown in spite of the tennis the facts are there but time will tell I resume alas alas on on in short in fine on on abode of stones who can doubt it I resume but not so fast I resume the skull to shrink and waste and concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown in spite of the tennis on on the beard the flames the tears the stones so blue so calm alas alas on on the skull the skull the skull the skull in Connemara in spite of the tennis the labours abandoned left unfinished graver still abode of stones in a word I resume alas alas abandoned unfinished the skull the skull in Connemara in spite of the tennis the skull alas the stones Cunard (mêlée, final vociferations) tennis… the stones… so calm… Cunard… unfinished…”