Unions and worker's rights

myp · May 6, 2010

Since some discussions in the economics forum recently started moving towards unionism discussions, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on it to see the different opinions everyone has on the matter.

So do you think unions are effective? Necessary? Also, how do you see them in terms of worker's rights and compensation?

Personally, I can see some instances when unions may be beneficial, but I think at times they also hurt workers and their rights. For example, some unions require all workers at the company to join or pay dues, which actually hurts those who want to work there, but not unionize. Of course such instances usually involve a contract with the country which disallows outside hiring, but I just find it counterproductive.

I also think that a company should have the right to fire an entire union if they wish to do so or to fire workers who are trying to unionize, just as workers have the right to quit at a place that doesn't allow unionization (all barring that no prior contract was signed of course.)

Overall, I just find that unions are very overrated in today's America (and world I guess- not really too sure on the mass opinion in other countries) especially when instances such as the UAW are considered where they helped add fuel to the fire of a company's downfall. Note that I am in no way advocating making unions illegal or that they shouldn't exist, but just that they are overrated in that they perhaps haven't accomplished as much as some people think.

Dirk · May 7, 2010

Haha! I presume this is for my benefit, eh?

I am of the opinion that syndicalism is a very important aspect of the labour movement. Not necessarily vital, but I refuse to rely on Governments to make progress in protecting workers. We need to do things ourselves, and unions are a brilliant organising point.

They're also a good potential organising point for the revolution.

I WILL ADD THAT I OPPOSE:

*Undemocratic unions
*Closed-shop unionism
*Union bosses

There's probably a lot more to say, but I'm really tired. I've stayed up all night for the UK elections. And I haven't slept much recently anyway.

myp · May 7, 2010

Not just geared towards you, but I did want to hear your opinions as well, yes. We haven't had many unionism discussions around, so I thought it'd be a good thread to start.

Returning to the topic, how do you think the law should protect (or not protect) unions? Should they be given certain rights or do you feel that it should all be contractually decided in the private sector?

el canadiano · May 9, 2010

They're good to prevent workplace abuse and labour rights, but it's a problem when they ask for too much. OC Transpo in Ottawa and the UAW are perfect examples of those.

Dirk · May 9, 2010

myp said:
Not just geared towards you, but I did want to hear your opinions as well, yes. We haven't had many unionism discussions around, so I thought it'd be a good thread to start.

Returning to the topic, how do you think the law should protect (or not protect) unions? Should they be given certain rights or do you feel that it should all be contractually decided in the private sector?

While the state exists, it would be preferable if it:

*Protects an inherent prerogative to unionise
*Remains neutral in disputes
*Allow workers to follow traditional protest techniques, including "go slow", "work to rule" and strikes, without fear of unemployment
*Listened to public sector unions
*Enforced agreements between unions and businesses in the court

Again, there's probably more, but I'm very busy and I need sleep. I'm not sure if it should do anything about the hiring of scabs. I hate it, obviously, but you can't blame an unemployed person for taking a job, can you?

David · May 9, 2010

Dirk said:
While the state exists, it would be preferable if it:

*Protects an inherent prerogative to unionise
*Remains neutral in disputes
*Allow workers to follow traditional protest techniques, including "go slow", "work to rule" and strikes, without fear of unemployment
*Listened to public sector unions
*Enforced agreements between unions and businesses in the court

Again, there's probably more, but I'm very busy and I need sleep. I'm not sure if it should do anything about the hiring of scabs. I hate it, obviously, but you can't blame an unemployed person for taking a job, can you?

So you'd support an end to civilized life? It's happened as anyone who's been thru or studied a strike by workers in a vital industry (wast management for example) or worse a general strike when everything stops will tell you.

Now I can support striking if it's not going to make life a living hell for others (I'm a 'your rights end where they interfere with someone else's' type) and will actually accomplish something but to strike when it will harm society or when you know it will end in every striker getting fired and contracted non-union workers hired is just wrong.

myp · May 9, 2010

David said:
Now I can support striking if it's not going to make life a living hell for others (I'm a 'your rights end where they interfere with someone else's' type) and will actually accomplish something but to strike when it will harm society or when you know it will end in every striker getting fired and contracted non-union workers hired is just wrong.

Well if we are talking about rights, then in saying this you are assuming that society has a right to those striking workers making or doing whatever it is that they do. I would disagree with that.

I am fine with strikes, but the unions should also recognize the consequences before doing so (which in some cases could be them all getting fired as you said.)

David · May 9, 2010

myp said:
Well if we are talking about rights, then in saying this you are assuming that society has a right to those striking workers making or doing whatever it is that they do. I would disagree with that.

I am fine with strikes, but the unions should also recognize the consequences before doing so (which in some cases could be them all getting fired as you said.)

You don't think people have a right to not live in squalor?

myp · May 9, 2010

David said:
You don't think people have a right to not live in squalor?

I am not sure how a strike would lead to people living in squalor. The only time it might happen is if it is some very grand-scale strike. But, if you are playing the rights card, then if you stop them from striking, you are taking away their "right" to choose not to work in order to uphold another's "right" to have access to that service.

Personally, I don't see access to a service as a right because it relies on someone else to do something and if you make that service a right, you are just taking away the right of the other person to not work.

David · May 9, 2010

myp said:
I am not sure how a strike would lead to people living in squalor. The only time it might happen is if it is some very grand-scale strike. But, if you are playing the rights card, then if you stop them from striking, you are taking away their "right" to choose not to work in order to uphold another's "right" to have access to that service.

Personally, I don't see access to a service as a right because it relies on someone else to do something and if you make that service a right, you are just taking away the right of the other person to not work.

I'm thinking things like wast management, power generation, law enforcment, ect. As I originally stated, if it won't screw anyone other then the bosses over and actually has a chance at accomplishing something other then a bunch of pink slips for the strikers, then I've no issue with it.

lorcan · May 11, 2010

Here in Ireland i think that the trade unions run the country, and it make the economy look very bad if workers are always looking for more money and better holidays. They also always get what they want from the goverment, most times anyway, so i think that trade unions should have less power.

Alias · May 12, 2010

The Teacher's Union in the United States is corrupt and needs to be removed. The Teacher's unions are ruining education in the United States.

el canadiano · May 14, 2010

Alias said:
The Teacher's Union in the United States is corrupt and needs to be removed. The Teacher's unions are ruining education in the United States.

Heh, but teachers here get paid a whole lot more. One of my teacher's wife is American, and she actually came up here to work just because teaching pay is a lot more up here.

Dirk · May 16, 2010

lorcan said:
Here in Ireland i think that the trade unions run the country

Better than private tyrannies running the country.

prasanth5 · May 16, 2010

Unions are like onions and when we try to peel them off we get tears in our eyes. I mean we have no other go but to cry.

el canadiano · May 20, 2010

Dirk said:
Better than private tyrannies running the country.

Well, not always. I mean if corporates are actually somewhat responsible, then it wouldn't be in that case.

Dirk · May 20, 2010

el canadiano said:
Well, not always. I mean if corporates are actually somewhat responsible, then it wouldn't be in that case.

Aren't you the utopian?

el canadiano · May 22, 2010

Nah. I'm a radical centrist.

Dirk · May 22, 2010

el canadiano said:
Nah. I'm a radical centrist.

So, on the basis of what you suggested, you'd support benign dictatorship over democracy?

el canadiano · May 23, 2010

Not really. I support democracy and a free economy (but not 100% free, regulations are needed). What I was going to get at was that you can't let unions ask for too much (UAW and OC Transpo in Ottawa being examples), but they are necessary.

Unions and worker's rights

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