US Doctor Shortage to Improve Under New Laws

Mar 2009
2,188
2
Once again I repeat the point you ignore: perfection is the enemy of the possible. The plight of 20,000,000-40,000,000 Americans without health coverage has obviously reached a national point of criticality.
This sounds a bit dramatic, doesn't it? It gives the impression that currently there is no medical assistance available for people who do not have or cannot afford to have medical insurance. That is not true. If it is a real crisis, then all emergency departments of Hospitals can help. If longer term assistance is needed, there are existing Government programmes, that are not working perfectly, but nonetheless are there. The fact that they do not work perfectly, would be a very good example of exactly why the Federal Government should not be in the role of administrating a health insurance coverage for all. Government does not do business well. It has a proven track record for that. Administrators also tend to get involved in pay offs and fraudulent schemes and make a mess out of things. If Government has to be involved, then give it for the States to administrate and not Federal Government. Federal Government should not get involved in details like these. It is setting everyone up for a very costly disaster.
 
Last edited:
Jan 2010
317
0
Who is comparing 1776 to 2010? I am simply saying that just because the rest of the Western world does something does not mean its right.

You brought the past up, not me.

I am saying that perhaps America can find a better way, as it did with government. I believe we had that way and we have lost it. And as for being workable, why don't you take a look at their budgets and then tell me how workable it is over the next 100+ years.
Quite unwilling to address my direct suggestions for paying for it, are we? American insurers have had years to do exactly that and too many people died. Time's up.

And as it has deteriorated, government has also meddled in it more. Coincidence? I think not. The majority of hospitals have major public funding today as opposed to not 20 years ago. What is in the market today is not something made in a free market.
There isn't a nation in the world with a free market.

I do not believe in the idea of acting "for the greater good."
Pretty extremist.

Historically it has only led to tyranny and chaos.
Show where?

As for 300,000,000 people (not sure where you got the extra 30 million {pretty out of touch are you?} )- of course they all won't, but the lack of government keeps things in the people's hands. Government just makes them do things.
Great theory, as long as you never have to govern with it.

Besides, what happened to the Constitution?
Legislating health care destroys the Constitution? I'd ask you how but you have not responded to my examples, so I have no faith that you are really addressing this issue with logic. I gave you lots to work with but all I get back is, "Yeah but I don't think so."

That does not mean the government has to provide health care.
Now it does. The government of the people, by the people and for the people just said so.

You realize that the majority on insurance companies make NO profit on premiums right?
Let me guess? The Cabbage Patch bunny does? Sorry, but I don't buy it. You have bit hard haven't you? We're not going to agree.
 
Apr 2009
1,943
5
Disunited Queendom
Is that an immutable rule for which people are disgraced or imprisoned for disregarding or disobeying

It is the reason for its formation and its primary function. Protection of power and privilege, my friend. That doesn't mean it doesn't or can't serve other functions. Some can be good, others bad. I happen to consider a provision of healthcare for all to be a good thing. But i'm not interested in waiting on "my" masters, hand and foot, fighting my brothers and sisters for the scraps thrown from the bosses' tables.

I am simply saying that just because the rest of the Western world does something does not mean its right.

I don't think it's a matter of right and wrong. Just different ways. I don't expect perfection from anyone. I just push for better. More practical.

I do not believe in the idea of acting "for the greater good."

Everyone does, to some extent.

...there are existing Government programmes, that are not working perfectly, but nonetheless are there. The fact that they do not work perfectly, would be a very good example of exactly why the Federal Government should not be in the role of administrating a health insurance coverage for all. Government does not do business well. It has a proven track record for that.

Ah, is this Medicare/Medicaid? It's interesting you should bring that up. It runs far more efficiently than the insurance corporations. Actually, this could even be improved upon by getting rid of some stupid "free" market schemes. Like drug negotiation. Hospitals aren't allowed to negotiate drug prices, but the Pentagon is allowed to negotiate prices for stationery!

There isn't a nation in the world with a free market.

Very true. I doubt it's literally possible, anyway.
 
Mar 2009
2,188
2
Ah, is this Medicare/Medicaid? It's interesting you should bring that up. It runs far more efficiently than the insurance corporations. Actually, this could even be improved upon by getting rid of some stupid "free" market schemes. Like drug negotiation. Hospitals aren't allowed to negotiate drug prices, but the Pentagon is allowed to negotiate prices for stationery!
Right, quite a number of people have said the same thing. That the Medicare/Medicaid should rather be expanded and made more efficient.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Chuck, I am not here to play childish name-calling games where we just attack each others ethos. If you want to debate the actual issue and the facts do it. If you just want to be arrogant and think you are right before we even talk, then I can not debate with you because there is no point.

I have given you responses. You simply don't respond back with facts or logic, but instead often choose to repeat your answers or attack my ethos. Let me shorten up my last post (which I suggest you read again) for you: You think the insurance companies are making tremendous profits on the backs of the people, yet they make very little to no money directly off premiums. I will show you some statistics when I get a chance to look them up. If you want to see it now just look at the business structure of any insurance company and you will see it. They make their money by investing part of the pool of money- those are their profits, not the actual premiums.

As for the matter of Constitutionality, why don't you show me where in the document it says health care mandates are the right of the Federal government? The Constitution specifies the role of the Fed. gov't and everything not mentioned falls to the states and the people as per the 10th amendment. Show me which clause makes this mandate constitutional because I just told you what doesn't.

And being against the notion of the government acting for the greater good in every sense other than the military is not extremist at all. Ever read the Constitution?

Oh, and it is not 330,000,000 people: http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...on&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=america+population

Maybe it is you that is out of touch with reality?
 
Jan 2010
317
0
Chuck, I am not here to play childish name-calling games where we just attack each others ethos. If you want to debate the actual issue and the facts do it. If you just want to be arrogant and think you are right before we even talk, then I can not debate with you because there is no point.

Interesting. I feel the same way about your replies. Rather than bring up issues worthy of constructive debate you post sophomoric rhetoric such as saying government is coercive. (I am speaking peacefully, not angrily.) Some parts of government are, some have other functions. Societies cannot function without some form of government and your diatribe sounds like government bashing with no discrimination. As such it has a net value of zero or less in terms of logic, IMO. That is a big reason I think you are a student somewhere. You are (I hypothesize) in a conservative institution somewhere in America and (as we all did when students) adopt many of your profs' views. We all do/did. You need to leaven your conservative outlook with liberal reading and world experience. Theoretical criticism is fine as long as it never has to pass any test of workability. Tell me how you will govern America without a government? If you say government but smaller you are agreeing with government in practice but just differing in substance. That is ok, but simply repeating over and over different versions of 'government is coercive' as though government should be banned is logically a non-argument.

I have given you responses. You simply don't respond back with facts or logic, but instead often choose to repeat your answers or attack my ethos. Let me shorten up my last post (which I suggest you read again) for you: You think the insurance companies are making tremendous profits on the backs of the people, yet they make very little to no money directly off premiums. I will show you some statistics when I get a chance to look them up. If you want to see it now just look at the business structure of any insurance company and you will see it. They make their money by investing part of the pool of money- those are their profits, not the actual premiums.
First let's address your position that I keep giving the same answers. That is because you are unable to shake my views by simply amending your approach. My answers do not necessarily change based on how you choose to address the issue.

What you say about premiums might be true or untrue depending on the market. Sometimes premiums = profits, other times the investment market is so hot that insurers give good deals to get the cash flow for investment. Who cares whether the premiums themselves or their investment results are the direct profit source? You are arguing about a difference without a distinction. If an insurer sells more than just health insurance, either up front or being connected to other corporations, it can make its profit structure say whatever the politics of the day appear to render most palatable. You cannot guarantee that premiums don't = profits unless you are privy to highly confidential corporate strategy. In the current political environment I guarantee you are not getting an accurate take - if you ever do. You see what they want you to see, sometimes for public reasons and sometimes not. By next year you might see an entirely different picture based on the same cash flows.

What is undeniable is that health insurers have not competed in a free market with fluctuating prices as much as they would in an economically efficient market. The have had the people literally by the balls and they squeezed. People have suffered life changing health issues and death as a result. The industry has proven itself untrustworthy and has been replaced. That is the right of the people in a democracy.

As for the matter of Constitutionality, why don't you show me where in the document it says health care mandates are the right of the Federal government?

The Constitution specifies the role of the Fed. gov't and everything not mentioned falls to the states and the people as per the 10th amendment.
Yes I know. The concept is referred to as the "residual power". But you err in saying the states and the people, and by doing so display a deep bias that taints all the rest of your arguments. The people are represented by both state AND federal governments. Whoever has convinced you that only state governments represent the people has done you a grave disservice.

Show me which clause makes this mandate constitutional because I just told you what doesn't.
Article 8 to regulate commerce is a good starting place. Presumably the issue will be challenged and the scotus may or may not agree, or may or may not accept or reject for different reasons. To suggest that constitutional law is decided by such a simplistic analysis as searching for buzz words in articles is to totally ignore constitutional precedent and legal practice. For instance where in the constitution is a stand-alone "airforce" permitted? Only army and navy are mentioned.

And being against the notion of the government acting for the greater good in every sense other than the military is not extremist at all. Ever read the Constitution?
Why do you exclude military? Should they, with the greatest potential for coercion, not be the most zealously guarded to ensure that they act only for the greater good? Many people could argue with great logic that American democracy has passed into being a military state. Ask yourself what would happen if tomorrow all officers of flag rank were fired and debate commenced in Congress over whether to have a regular force military? I think there is a reasonable chance that the military would resist such a change with force or threats of force. Maybe it has already happened in secret? Maybe certain members of Congress started talking about it but were told it is 'too dangerous in a nuclear world and the Joint Chiefs would not permit it'? If so, Americans are no longer free to regulate their affairs free from the demands of their military. A military junta does not have to look exactly the same in the US as a military junta in the third world. It is quite logical to posit that there "could exist" a distinctly American military rule over Congress that does not look like it to Americans. All it would take is strong enough US media to manage appearances. Do you think such could be managed?

Oh, and it is not 330,000,000 people: http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...on&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=america+population

Maybe it is you that is out of touch with reality?
Re-read the curve in your link. Your 300,000,000 figure is three years out of date. It passed 300,000,000 before July, 2007 - go to the chart and click on the line. In common usage people usually refer to national populations to the nearest upward round figure. Most commentators for the last year or so have been adopting a 330,000,000 figure. For the purposes of our argument it does not matter a whit. What does matter is that you, a moderator, are becoming aggressive as opposed to assertive and becoming personal. At the end of the day neither of us should lose a moment's sleep over these debates but I think you are becoming less than objective in your focus. For instance who gives a rat's butt between a 300M and 330M gross US population? I venture that if we were discussing a topic where the size was important to your position you would accept the 330M figure without a blink of an eye.

I believe that it does not matter what I post, you will reject it unless I agree with you and offer some form of symbolic surrender. I will only agree with you on a principled basis and the surrender won't happen. The world should not be left or right. It needs to be centrist, whatever that is. Nobody has ever figured out the ideal balance and if they did nobody else would agree.
 
Last edited:

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
So you don't agree that the government operates through coercion? Even when it is the military (which I do fully support,) the government forces its citizens to pay taxes- if you don't you get locked up. Would you not agree with that? I believe that in the instance of the army it is ok, but I would prefer to limit that coercion to a minimal. I am not an anarchist, but I also won't blind myself to make myself feel better. I know government is coercion, but I believe in the harm principle and believe it should exist because of that.

As for my conservative views- believe it or not I grew up in a liberal state and I attend one of the most liberal campuses in the nation. I have got my views from my readings and debate with others. If you are able to make a convincing argument, I will agree with you. If you are not though, I can not because I like to live my life based on logic, not whims.

Now about the premiums- the reason they are so high is because insurance companies need to be prepared for a massive spread of disease or sickness, in which case they would have to pay out a lot of money. Health care is expensive, I think we can both agree on that. That being said, taking on the liability of paying for those potential expenses is a huge burden and the pool of money only serves to help the company pay out in those circumstances. When it comes to preexisting conditions and similar circumstances, there has been a breach of contract (or the contract specifies no payment in that circumstance) in which case the insurance company wouldn't pay. It is a legally binding contract that an insurance buyer agrees to upon buying a policy. They sign it with their own consent- if they think it is unfair, then they shouldn't sign it. How can an insurance company set premium prices if everyone just lied about what they have so they have to pay less? Not only would the pool of money be too small in the case of a health crisis, but the insurance company could also go bankrupt and everyone would lose coverage.

As for making profits, an insurance company operates much like a bank in the way that it makes profits. They keep their pool of money big to cover payouts (in banks that would be withdrawls) but the rest is temporarily used to make investments. Just like banks are still liable for all deposits made, insurance companies are liable for all payouts to be made.

Even when you nationalize such a system, the costs are still there. Especially with the recent passage of the health care bill here in America. The bill does not rely on the market to increase competition and hence reduce costs, so those expenses are just passed on to government. In the end, we the people pay for that government, so it is the same thing. The insurance companies and big pharma make out big- notice how many of them supported this bill- all because they know they get these free clients at government expense. They will take more in on premiums now than ever before and with that they'll invest more and make more profits too. Unfortunately, down the road, the people will pay for it all with inflation and taxes. Even if you cut out every other government expense, these entitlement programs would not be sustainable over the long run. Look at social security and medicare, which have debt obligations of over 50 trillion dollars- some 150k+ per man, woman, and child in America. Eventually, someone will have to pay.

On the tenth amendment: Let me just post it word-for-word:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
It says all powers NOT delegated to the US are given to the states and the people. Now if the people included the Fed. gov't, then what does the Constitution mean when it says US?

The air force falls under the US military, which is specified in the Constitution. Remember that it starts our as the Army Air Corps.

As for the commerce clause, it specifically says that Congress can regulate trade between states, with other foreign nations, and Indian tribes. How in this do you see the Constitutionality behind entitlement programs such as health care?

I'm not sure why you went on the military rant, but simply put, I agree in that the military is coercion and a "for the greater good" idea, but it is also specified by the Constitution and in the modern world which consists primarily of states, it is necessary.

300 million- you are right in that this is off-topic, but I am a science guy and false figures tend to annoy me. Call it a pet peeve if you want :p That being said, the curve shows it at 307 million right now. Even rounded up you would go to 310 million if you are rounding at the 10 millions place. If you are rounding at the hundred millions and you go up it'd be 400 million. 330 million would not be derived by any form of traditional rounding. With an applied standard of deviation or propagation of error, perhaps one end of the number may be near there, but of course that would just be part of a range, usually denoted by a + - next to the number.

And last, but not least, I am sorry if you feel like I am not listening to what you are saying, but I am. And I have responded to all your points in what I think is a fair way. As an admin, I felt I have done nothing wrong in terms of treatment. I am debating you as a fellow member and not an administrative figure, but I have not broken any rules in the process- if I have please point them out.
 
Jan 2010
317
0
So you don't agree that the government operates through coercion?

The issue is described in the discipline of sociology. The democracies are referred to as self enforcing cultures. Nobody shows up at your door to take taxes. You are trusted and government conducts random sampling to "trust but verify". Naturally government has resort to force if people disobey, but only then in accordance with due process. So no, except in extremis government does not operate through coercion. It only has coercion as an ultimate recourse, and then only by court order except in emergency or statutory enforcement operations. Those protections are why you have a constitution that over-rules statutes and cannot be amended by a simple majority.

Even when it is the military (which I do fully support,) the government forces its citizens to pay taxes- if you don't you get locked up. ...
So you want the army collecting defaulted tax? Personally I prefer the present way. Government acts through lawful non-violent civil action.

As for the military, are you saying you support individual servicemen or the concept of an omniscient omnipresent armed presence? Careful. There's a big difference. My understanding is that the Posse Comitatis Act prohibits military resolution of civil matters within CONUS.

I believe in the harm principle and believe it should exist because of that.
What is the harm principle, other than some fancy phrasing for the concept that reasonable people take their hands off hot stoves?

I like to live my life based on logic, not whims.
Maybe you should remember the concept "everything in moderation"? Sometimes your heart must lead. It can take a long time to learn.

Now about the premiums- the reason they are so high is because insurance companies need to be prepared for a massive spread of disease or sickness, in which case they would have to pay out a lot of money.
... taking on the liability of paying for those potential expenses is a huge burden and the pool of money only serves to help the company pay out in those circumstances.
That is part of overhead. Even after 9-11, insurance authorities said that there was budgeted money in the till for disasters of that magnitude.

When it comes to preexisting conditions and similar circumstances, there has been a breach of contract (or the contract specifies no payment in that circumstance) in which case the insurance company wouldn't pay. It is a legally binding contract that an insurance buyer agrees to upon buying a policy. They sign it with their own consent- if they think it is unfair, then they shouldn't sign it.
That is not always the law, especially in dealing with oligarchies. Look up the principle of "unconscionability". In theory the purpose of the law is to regulate people, not hurt them.

How can an insurance company set premium prices if everyone just lied about what they have so they have to pay less? Not only would the pool of money be too small in the case of a health crisis, but the insurance company could also go bankrupt and everyone would lose coverage.
"Could?" Got any examples? Insurance adjusters have contests and budgeted goals to disentitle consumers, and ill or injured consumers are seldom wealthy enough to dispute bullsh!t denials. Dad just dies. It is the unfairness aspect that has caused the insurers to be ousted. If you have studied at all you know that history is full of powerful players simply writing unfair contracts and ignoring valid claims and cheating people. A cheat that goes undetected and unchallenged is still a cheat. America has lost faith after too many years of being treated worse than any other western nation in health care. It is very difficult to get a polity this large to finally rise and speak. It finally happened.

As for making profits, an insurance company operates much like a bank in the way that it makes profits. They keep their pool of money big to cover payouts (in banks that would be withdrawls) but the rest is temporarily used to make investments. Just like banks are still liable for all deposits made, insurance companies are liable for all payouts to be made.
If they worked equitably they might not have brought this down on themselves. They didn't.

The bill does not rely on the market to increase competition and hence reduce costs, so those expenses are just passed on to government.
In your various posts you keep saying the word "competition" as though it is a mantra. Everything is not best run competitively. Every western nation except the US long since concluded that health care should not. Americans are free to do whatever they want, but you are in a very poor debating position to say it is unworkable, destructive and evil. It works everywhere else.

Even if you cut out every other government expense, these entitlement programs would not be sustainable over the long run. Look at social security and medicare, which have debt obligations of over 50 trillion dollars- some 150k+ per man, woman, and child in America. Eventually, someone will have to pay.
Conservative rhetoric. Nothing has changed. If the insurers have been able to do it up to now it can still be done, just probably without as much hurt. Have you aver watched a family member die in pain because an adjuster somewhere makes an interpretation that is unreasonable? With the profit motive removed the slack can be replaced with more and better care. As for entitlement programs, money is an abstract and can be managed. Many people feel that the purpose of a government is not just to build roads, hire cops and deploy armies. A government is the result of all of us deciding how to best live within a defined geographical boundary. If we want to help each other that is permissible.

On the tenth amendment: Let me just post it word-for-word:
It says all powers NOT delegated to the US are given to the states and the people. Now if the people included the Fed. gov't, then what does the Constitution mean when it says US?
What do you mean exactly and do you have case law at your disposal to support your proposition?

The air force falls under the US military, which is specified in the Constitution. Remember that it starts our as the Army Air Corps.
There is a rule of legal interpretation which states that a list of specific things expressly excludes other unspecified things. There is no specific constitutional authority for an airforce as a stand-alone entity, because the list says army and navy, period. It should exist as part of one or the other, not as a separate entity.

Neither is there any express authority for income tax. Recent research says the income tax acts were rushed into effect in wartime, but the requisite 2/3rds majority of states never ratified it.

As for the commerce clause, it specifically says that Congress can regulate trade between states, with other foreign nations, and Indian tribes. How in this do you see the Constitutionality behind entitlement programs such as health care?
It is a matter of nation wide economic concern that sees vast transfers of wealth across America and vitally concerns all people. I'll give you a more detailed analysis for $500/hr, in advance. But it would be a waste of your money. Others are going to argue it anyway and the arguments have been in preparation for years now.

I'm not sure why you went on the military rant, but simply put, I agree in that the military is coercion and a "for the greater good" idea, but it is also specified by the Constitution and in the modern world which consists primarily of states, it is necessary.
Necessary? As in pragmatism? Same with health care.

300 million- you are right in that this is off-topic, but I am a science guy and false figures tend to annoy me. Call it a pet peeve if you want :p That being said, the curve shows it at 307 million right now. Even rounded up you would go to 310 million if you are rounding at the 10 millions place. If you are rounding at the hundred millions and you go up it'd be 400 million. 330 million would not be derived by any form of traditional rounding. With an applied standard of deviation or propagation of error, perhaps one end of the number may be near there, but of course that would just be part of a range, usually denoted by a + - next to the number.
A recent read on Admiral Hyman Rickover said that he was a total disbeliever in a classical or humanistic education He wanted nothing but hard science grads. That is fine for a purely hard science environment but you can't run human beings on engineering principles. Unfortunately, in America those are many of the best paying jobs in a culture that is fascinated with money and inventions, so humanist educations are out of vogue. Fine, but the rules that hold together social fabric are just as important as those that make a nuclear reactor safe. The consequences of forgetting them are not as immediate or obvious and are often more flexible, and solutions often get bogged down in opinions and rhetoric. But if you totally ignore them disaster will follow.

I am debating you as a fellow member and not an administrative figure, but I have not broken any rules in the process- if I have please point them out.
When you speak critically while wearing the mantle of authority I have no way of knowing whether I am being vigorously debated or set up for a fall. Like it or not there are disadvantages to being "first among equals" as you are.
 
Apr 2009
1,943
5
Disunited Queendom
This debate would go so much better with less rhetoric and more concision.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
I'd say that's some stellar advice from Dirk :p

There are a lot of words flying, so let's break this down. First off, I'm just going to drop the 300m people thing- not very relevant here.

Second, when I said I think the military is a needed form of government (in the first part of my last post) I meant that I think military spending and a nationalized military was ok. I was not saying that the military should collect taxes or run the country as you interpreted (my rhetoric was a little fuzzy, admittedly.)

Ok, and now to the money point :p - health care.
I think we can split this up into a few segments to make this easier for both of us to follow:

1) Constitutionality: The commerce clause allows the Fed. gov't to regulate trade between states, but there is nothing about the regulation of the people. Furthermore, the 10th amendment's actual wording tells us that all power not given to the Fed. gov't is left to the states. Whether or not there are other unconstitutional parts of government already is really not relevant- two wrongs don't make a right.

2) Costs: We can both agree that health care is expensive no matter who pays for it. Whoever takes on the responsibility of paying for it, whether it is government or insurance companies, would surely have massive liabilities. If a massive health crisis were to emerge, the entity responsible for payment would have to pay out on these liabilities. This is why premiums are so high. The insurance companies need to cover their liabilities for a potential disaster scenario because if they didn't, they would go bankrupt in such a scenario. As per basic economics, increased supply leads to lower prices. In the case of insurance companies, why not allow interstate purchase of insurance? That would mean more competition and lower prices as companies might even start subsidizing part of their pool money with profits made from investments. Furthermore, it would mean more choices for consumers. On a side note, you said the rest of the Western world has realized competition is not good for the HC market, yet Germany has a large number of private insurance companies while many American states only have 1.

The problem with this mandate is that it keeps the market power in the hands of the insurance companies and simply tells them that the government will essentially pay you whatever you want. In the end, the people pay for government since the government doesn't produce anything.

This is why the 150k obligation per person created by social security and medicare can not be ignored. Someone will have to pay. Maybe we can sell the debt to China for 10 more years, but what happens when they say no? Future generations will pay for it (the same situation is in place in many other western countries) and personally, I don't think that is right. When that happens they will likely not have health care either because at that point the government won't be able to pay for it either.

3) Insurance companies denying coverage: They can only deny coverage when it is legally possible. It is only legally possible when they have a contract in their hands, signed by the patient when they bought the policy. For those very worried about pre-existing conditions, why not read the contract and purchase an agreement without those restrictions? Sure it might cost more, but as we can both agree, health care is expensive. Doctors and hospitals will want their money either way.

4) The responsibility of government: This is probably where we will simply not agree. I do not see it as the responsibility of government to provide health care for the people. Sure health care can save lives, but so can eating organic foods, exercising, and many other things. Is the government going to provide those too?

Furthermore, while you may consent to universal health care, everyone doesn't. When government is involved, everyone is forced either way. Since we are all human and no one knows everything or can see the future, who says the guy who says universal health care is a right or is needed is definitely right and the guy against it isn't?

5) Altruism: Self-interest is a part of the world. Everyone is self-interested and personally I don't think that makes us evil or we should demonize each other for that. If self-interest was not within us, everyone would do everything for free and we wouldn't even have this discussion. It just isn't how things work. In my opinion the world would not be where it was without self interest and the world certainly wouldn't.

With this idea, I think it is also important to note that while insurance companies have self-interest, so do politicians, governments, doctors, pharmacies, and hospitals. A "universal" health care idea pitched by a politician deserves strict scrutiny.

Now this not mean that people won't help those who need something if they have extra money, etc. There are good people- we see it everyday with volunteers and charities. I believe those people would help fill in the gaps so to speak in a system where costs were lower and people did have more money in their pocket.
 
Jan 2010
317
0
I think we can split this up into a few segments to make this easier for both of us to follow:

1) Constitutionality: The commerce clause allows the Fed. gov't to regulate trade between states, but there is nothing about the regulation of the people. Furthermore, the 10th amendment's actual wording tells us that all power not given to the Fed. gov't is left to the states. Whether or not there are other unconstitutional parts of government already is really not relevant- two wrongs don't make a right.

Like I said, you might be correct and it will be challenged. Arguments in constitutional law might indeed be resolved on as simple a basis as lack of a buzz word in a phrase. Usually not though because if so they settle long before they get to SCOTUS.

2) Costs: We can both agree that health care is expensive no matter who pays for it. Whoever takes on the responsibility of paying for it, whether it is government or insurance companies, would surely have massive liabilities. If a massive health crisis were to emerge, the entity responsible for payment would have to pay out on these liabilities. This is why premiums are so high. The insurance companies need to cover their liabilities for a potential disaster scenario because if they didn't, they would go bankrupt in such a scenario. As per basic economics, increased supply leads to lower prices. In the case of insurance companies, why not allow interstate purchase of insurance? That would mean more competition and lower prices as companies might even start subsidizing part of their pool money with profits made from investments. Furthermore, it would mean more choices for consumers. On a side note, you said the rest of the Western world has realized competition is not good for the HC market, yet Germany has a large number of private insurance companies while many American states only have 1.

The problem with this mandate is that it keeps the market power in the hands of the insurance companies and simply tells them that the government will essentially pay you whatever you want. In the end, the people pay for government since the government doesn't produce anything.
You might be entirely correct. Have you ever heard the expression that an elephant is a horse designed by a committee? I would not be surprised if it takes years, maybe a generation, for US health care to settle into efficiency. That's what an adversarial system often creates. That is why I keep repeating that the perfect is the enemy of the possible. The only certainty is that something was long overdue to happen.

3) Insurance companies denying coverage: They can only deny coverage when it is legally possible. It is only legally possible when they have a contract in their hands, signed by the patient when they bought the policy. For those very worried about pre-existing conditions, why not read the contract and purchase an agreement without those restrictions? Sure it might cost more, but as we can both agree, health care is expensive. Doctors and hospitals will want their money either way.
I totally disagree. Their economic power created the ability to deny coverage on pretexts that would not withstand scrutiny in court, but often involved people who did not have the ability to fight back. Ask judges who have seen the cases that did make it to court if they will talk to you privately. Corporate memos describing deliberate efforts to deny bona fide coverage for profit reasons are routine.

I also disagree that people had real choices. You don't need to expose yourself to anti-trust litigation to market-share. Just get ahold of the other company's contract and price sheet. The market was oligarchic. It probably still would have survived until it became systemically equitable then ran away with greed. If you don't agree that happened we might never agree with each other's positions. I believe so.

4) The responsibility of government: This is probably where we will simply not agree. I do not see it as the responsibility of government to provide health care for the people. Sure health care can save lives, but so can eating organic foods, exercising, and many other things. Is the government going to provide those too?
You are comparing micro to macro isses.

Furthermore, while you may consent to universal health care, everyone doesn't. When government is involved, everyone is forced either way. Since we are all human and no one knows everything or can see the future, who says the guy who says universal health care is a right or is needed is definitely right and the guy against it isn't?
Only God. The rest of us just argue.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Like I said, you might be correct and it will be challenged. Arguments in constitutional law might indeed be resolved on as simple a basis as lack of a buzz word in a phrase. Usually not though because if so they settle long before they get to SCOTUS.
That it will- several states are suing and I really hope it does get turned around.

You might be entirely correct. Have you ever heard the expression that an elephant is a horse designed by a committee? I would not be surprised if it takes years, maybe a generation, for US health care to settle into efficiency. That's what an adversarial system often creates. That is why I keep repeating that the perfect is the enemy of the possible. The only certainty is that something was long overdue to happen.
While reform was needed, I think it is clear even in the statements I have made in this thread that the market before this mandate was no where near a free market to begin with. This means that the perfection you speak of can really rely on either side of reform- more government or less. Personally, I feel it falls on the side of the less. With the track record of government programs (including universal heath care) and the costs that come with it, I feel it is just not sustainable in the long run just as it wasn't with the Soviets.

I totally disagree. Their economic power created the ability to deny coverage on pretexts that would not withstand scrutiny in court, but often involved people who did not have the ability to fight back. Ask judges who have seen the cases that did make it to court if they will talk to you privately. Corporate memos describing deliberate efforts to deny bona fide coverage for profit reasons are routine.
A lot of that market power in the hands of the insurance companies was because of the lack of competition. If there were more companies competing, they'd try to beat each other in value and eventually one would sell plans that had no pre-existing condition clause if that is what the people really demanded. Unfortunately, the market was not allowed to work due to government restrictions.

Legally, the people who signed the premiums did so knowing they could be denied coverage and as such it was legal for the ins companies to do so.

I also disagree that people had real choices. You don't need to expose yourself to anti-trust litigation to market-share. Just get ahold of the other company's contract and price sheet. The market was oligarchic. It probably still would have survived until it became systemically equitable then ran away with greed. If you don't agree that happened we might never agree with each other's positions. I believe so.
The reason the market was so limited was because of existing restrictions in the market.

You are comparing micro to macro isses.
That is a matter of opinion. Especially with obesity heading the way it is, eating right and exercising already consist of a large reason why people end up having health problems in the first place anyway.

Only God. The rest of us just argue.
Exactly, which is why philosophically I don't think it is right for one to force another to pay for someone else. If you want to help, do it. Just don't make others do it. In a system without a mandate, those who want to participate in a large pool (such as the government is trying to create with this plan) can do so by having their own organization- just don't make those who don't want to participate join. Free markets allow for private forms of wealth sharing and socialism, government mandates do not allow for private forms of free markets.
 
Jan 2010
317
0
Originally Posted by chuck schmidt
You might be entirely correct. Have you ever heard the expression that an elephant is a horse designed by a committee? I would not be surprised if it takes years, maybe a generation, for US health care to settle into efficiency. That's what an adversarial system often creates. That is why I keep repeating that the perfect is the enemy of the possible. The only certainty is that something was long overdue to happen.
While reform was needed, I think it is clear even in the statements I have made in this thread that the market before this mandate was no where near a free market to begin with. This means that the perfection you speak of can really rely on either side of reform- more government or less. Personally, I feel it falls on the side of the less. With the track record of government programs (including universal heath care) and the costs that come with it, I feel it is just not sustainable in the long run just as it wasn't with the Soviets.
Unfair comparison. The entire Soviet system collapsed, with their health system presumably being part of the general collapse. Western Europe and Canada seem to be doing just fine.

Originally Posted by chuck schmidt
I totally disagree. Their economic power created the ability to deny coverage on pretexts that would not withstand scrutiny in court, but often involved people who did not have the ability to fight back. Ask judges who have seen the cases that did make it to court if they will talk to you privately. Corporate memos describing deliberate efforts to deny bona fide coverage for profit reasons are routine.
Legally, the people who signed the premiums did so knowing they could be denied coverage and as such it was legal for the ins companies to do so.
Legal but immoral. And the insurers got greedy and lost their cash cow. Now they pay consequences.


Originally Posted by chuck schmidt
The market ?. probably still would have survived until it became systemically [in]equitable then ran away with greed. If you don't agree that happened we might never agree with each other's positions. I believe so.
The reason the market was so limited was because of existing restrictions in the market.
Your reply totally ignores or misses the substance of what I wrote. There was a typo of mine, in which I intended to refer to the market as ?inequitable?. See amendment above.


Originally Posted by chuck schmidt
Only God. The rest of us just argue.
Exactly, which is why philosophically I don't think it is right for one to force another to pay for someone else.
All nations have a form of rule and taxation. If you don?t like it live without it. You won?t have Internet though.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Unfair comparison. The entire Soviet system collapsed, with their health system presumably being part of the general collapse. Western Europe and Canada seem to be doing just fine.
And yet, Europe and Canada are also losing money on both their healthcare systems as is the United States with medicare. Time will tell.

Legal but immoral. And the insurers got greedy and lost their cash cow. Now they pay consequences.
I don't find it immoral if the people who bought the policies new full well that could happen. If they had provided the required info or just demanded policies where they could not be denied, it would not have happened. I especially can not sympathize with those who knowingly lied about what diseases they had just to pay lower premiums. In that case it was them cheating the system.

As for consequences, how so? This bill gives them 30 million new customers at government expense. This mandate is just a bigger payday for them. Why do you think so many lobbied for it?

Your reply totally ignores or misses the substance of what I wrote. There was a typo of mine, in which I intended to refer to the market as “inequitable”. See amendment above.
Yea, I wasn't sure what you were saying. Still kind of confused- mind rephrasing it?

All nations have a form of rule and taxation. If you don’t like it live without it. You won’t have Internet though.
Well most inventions are the production of the private sector, so I am not sure why you are saying no internet. As for rule and taxation, there should be a limit on that no? Perhaps more importantly, just because they all have rules and taxes, does not mean it is philosophically right (or perhaps more importantly, you can not prove it right.) A lot of political philosophers are anarchists for this very reason. Even some great historical figures including Mahatma Gandhi identified themselves as such.
 
Jan 2010
317
0
And yet, Europe and Canada are also losing money on both their healthcare systems as is the United States with medicare. Time will tell.

The noise you hear from them is the checks and balances working in their system. They complain to media and or political leaders which embarrasses government. Sometimes no change happens because people are just jerking the system. Other times the system needs tweaking, and under public health care the tweaking can happen very quickly and noisily. Nobody said that premiums must = > costs. Bad health has many different costs in society. The US way up until now entailed more costs than Americans are willing to pay. You don't think the replacement method will work? You might be right. The old system sure didn't. Time will tell how the new system needs fine tuning. In the meantime other cultures, who have been in the public health care system for 40+ years are still trying new ideas to fine tune it.
 
Jan 2010
317
0
I don't find it immoral if the people who bought the policies new full well that could happen. If they had provided the required info or just demanded policies where they could not be denied, it would not have happened.

So it is your position that if somebody breaches your contract or treats you unfairly under a contract you have no right to complain if you knew it could happen? I got news for you. Any contract can be breached or performed unfairly. The term "black letter law" refers to a situation where one party to a contract acts unfairly and interprets a contract too restrictively. The term "equity" often means the courts going behind the black letter law and enforcing the complainant's expectations. Contract law is not engineering science. Input "A" does not always create output "X".

Besides, why do you always give examples of consumers breaking the contract? Nobody is demanding that agreements be breached. Just kept.
 
Jan 2010
317
0
Well most inventions are the production of the private sector

Many of America's most innovative developments have only been possible under the deep pockets of government funded military industrial projects. That is part of what Reagan's Secretary of the Navy meant when he called America a corporate welfare state funded through the military industrial complex.

I am not sure why you are saying no internet.
The only way you can live tax free in the modern state is to retire to the bush and live totally by yourself dependent on nobody. No internet there. It relies on cooperative efforts.

As for rule and taxation, there should be a limit on that no?

The limits on the law are found in the constitution. That is its purpose.

A lot of political philosophers are anarchists for this very reason.

You keep protesting that you are not an anarchist but you keep tossing up that word. How is it relevant in the present post?
 
Last edited:

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
So it is your position that if somebody breaches your contract or treats you unfairly under a contract you have no right to complain if you knew it could happen?
That is how the legal system works. If you agreed to it knowing it could happen, sure you can complain, but if you breached the contract under the terms specified that you had agreed to, you are liable for any penalties stated within the contract. Our entire system of civil law works like this.

I got news for you. Any contract can be breached or performed unfairly. The term "black letter law" refers to a situation where one party to a contract acts unfairly and interprets a contract too restrictively. The term "equity" often means the courts going behind the black letter law and enforcing the complainant's expectations. Contract law is not engineering science. Input "A" does not always create output "X".
Of course interpretation could be different and in that case you go to court for them to decide. In most cases, the insurance companies had won. Why? Because legally they were right.

Besides, why do you always give examples of consumers breaking the contract? Nobody is demanding that agreements be breached. Just kept.
Because no insurance company can deny coverage without a breach of contract from the consumers part. They don't just choose at will like, oh we won't pay for this guy because we don't want to.

Many of America's most innovative developments have only been possible under the deep pockets of government funded military industrial projects. That is part of what Reagan's Secretary of the Navy meant when he called America a corporate welfare state funded through the military industrial complex.
And you don't think we could have developed them in the private sector? From advancements in drugs to food growth to household appliances, the majority of products we use as Americans are the result of private sector research and without government funding, we would still have a lot of them because the companies who research them have a motive to do so- profits. Profits are not an evil thing.

The only way you can live tax free in the modern state is to retire to the bush and live totally by yourself dependent on nobody. No internet there. It relies on cooperative efforts.
Yet, the internet and other inventions could still exist without government. The only reason you might not be able to have them today without it is because government has become a middle man through taxes.

The limits on the law are found in the constitution. That is its purpose.
Of course and I feel this is unconstitutional. You seem to disagree- we'll let the courts decide.

You keep protesting that you are not an anarchist but you keep tossing up that word. How is it relevant in the present post?
It is relevant because you suggested that things like the internet would not be accessible without gov't which is untrue. We are off topic here though, so we can just drop it if you want to.
 
Jan 2010
317
0
That is how the legal system works. If you agreed to it knowing it could happen, sure you can complain, but if you breached the contract under the terms specified that you had agreed to, you are liable for any penalties stated within the contract. Our entire system of civil law works like this.

You didn't respond on point. If all people who were denied had breached their contract this would not have happened.

Of course interpretation could be different and in that case you go to court for them to decide. In most cases, the insurance companies had won. Why? Because legally they were right.

No, because they could buy justice and choose victims selectively.

Because no insurance company can deny coverage without a breach of contract from the consumers part. They don't just choose at will like, oh we won't pay for this guy because we don't want to.

Yes, they did. Routinely.

Profits are not an evil thing.

Never said they were.

It is relevant because you suggested that things like the internet would not be accessible without gov't which is untrue.

That is not what I said. I said that in an organized society you must pay taxes. You can get away without paying taxes by living alone totally separated from organized society. In that case the Internet is not accessible to you. It would still exist. My Internet statement has nothing to do with government. It has to do with living in an organized society. Organized societies require governments. Governments must be supported by taxes. Take the time to read it.
 
Top