Wealth Distribution in the United States

Also, over the last 30 years, government, namely welfare programs have also grown at rates never before experienced in the United States. These programs have often paved the way to corporatist policy. Capitalism has long been forgotten and especially over the last few decades it has been crony capitalism that has been installed in the United States.

myp said:

Also, over the last 30 years, government, namely welfare programs have also grown at rates never before experienced in the United States. These programs have often paved the way to corporatist policy. Capitalism has long been forgotten and especially over the last few decades it has been crony capitalism that has been installed in the United States.

Click to expand...

America, the 1 country were the socialists and capitalists both think things suck.

"We stand for a living wage. Wages are subnormal if they fail to provide a living for those who devote their time and energy to industrial occupations. The monetary equivalent of a living wage varies according to local conditions, but must include enough to secure the elements of a normal standard of living--a standard high enough to make morality possible, to provide for education and recreation, to care for immature members of the family, to maintain the family during periods of sickness, and to permit of reasonable saving for old age." - Excerpt from the Address by Theodore Roosevelt before the Convention of the National Progressive Party in Chicago (August, 1912)
. . .

The way to increase the richness of our way of life as Americans is to raise the standard of living for all - not a divided class society between the "haves and have-nots." It is the ordinary working people that get up every day and do the jobs upon which everyone depends and that everyone takes for granted. They are neglected and ignored for all their worth and the importance of their work. Never before in our country has there been a greater disparity between the income levels of wage-earners and the salaried executives of "Corporate America." Still we live in a world that would deny ordinary working people even the most basic of human rights and benefits of life. After a decade of voting itself an annual cost-of-living increase, the Congress has finally voted to raise the minimum wage by a niggardly $2.10 an hour! Have we learned nothing from history? In every age there has been unrest, revolution or war for the suppression of the masses to satisfy the greed and ambitions of the ruling classes. Apparently, nothing has changed; and so long as such inequities exist, it never will.

Nemo said:

"We stand for a living wage. Wages are subnormal if they fail to provide a living for those who devote their time and energy to industrial occupations. The monetary equivalent of a living wage varies according to local conditions, but must include enough to secure the elements of a normal standard of living--a standard high enough to make morality possible, to provide for education and recreation, to care for immature members of the family, to maintain the family during periods of sickness, and to permit of reasonable saving for old age." - Excerpt from the Address by Theodore Roosevelt before the Convention of the National Progressive Party in Chicago (August, 1912)
. . .

The way to increase the richness of our way of life as Americans is to raise the standard of living for all - not a divided class society between the "haves and have-nots." It is the ordinary working people that get up every day and do the jobs upon which everyone depends and that everyone takes for granted. They are neglected and ignored for all their worth and the importance of their work. Never before in our country has there been a greater disparity between the income levels of wage-earners and the salaried executives of "Corporate America." Still we live in a world that would deny ordinary working people even the most basic of human rights and benefits of life. After a decade of voting itself an annual cost-of-living increase, the Congress has finally voted to raise the minimum wage by a niggardly $2.10 an hour! Have we learned nothing from history? In every age there has been unrest, revolution or war for the suppression of the masses to satisfy the greed and ambitions of the ruling classes. Apparently, nothing has changed; and so long as such inequities exist, it never will.

Click to expand...

The elites do not fear revolution. They think we are weak and that we are content living in a 'democratic republic'. They are right in the cases of most but a revolution needs only a few.

Revolution is coming and has been coming since President Bush. People on the right and left talk openly of rebellion and treason. Talk openly of the need for change. They march thru the streets in protest and demand the resignation of every politician. Still the elites sit atop their ivory tower, unawares of the peril they're in.

All I can say is that it's sickening so many people have to go without health care and food just so some rich dude can keep his pockets lined, and if you don't like my opinion because I don't use big giant words and fancy language you can kiss my derriere (hows that word for you).

Is anyone really surprised?

"And if, on due and honest thought over these things, it seems that the kind of existence to which men are now summoned by every plea of pity and claim of right, may, for some time at least, not be a luxurious one; - consider whether, even supposing it guiltless, luxury would be desired by any of us, if we saw clearly at our sides the suffering which accompanies it in the world. Luxury is indeed possible in the future - innocent and exquisite; luxury for all, and by the help of all; but luxury at present can only be enjoyed by the ignorant; the cruelest man living could not sit at his feast, unless he sat blindfold. Raise the veil boldly; face the light; and if, as yet, the light of the eye can only be through tears, and the light of the body through sackcloth, go thou forth weeping, bearing precious seed, until the time come, and the kingdom, when Christ's gift of bread, and bequest of peace, shall be 'Unto this last as unto thee?; and when, for earth's severed multitudes of the wicked and the weary, there shall be holier reconciliation than that of the narrow home, and calm economy, where the Wicked cease - not from trouble, but from troubling - and the Weary are at rest."
- John Ruskin, "Ad Valorem," Cornhill Magazine (1860); reprinted as Unto This Last (1862).

ArghMonkey said:

And yet americans vote conservative *L*

The cons have that country believing their lies, the u.s. wont get better until they start thinking more about people than money ...

Click to expand...

I could no more be a "progressive" than you could be a conservative. And I can still see the lies coming from the progressives as well as the conservatives. I just can't believe the progressives can't see them too. But they never seem to see their own faults.

DodgeFB said:

I can still see the lies coming from the progressives as well as the conservatives. I just can't believe the progressives can't see them too. But they never seem to see their own faults.

Click to expand...

Really appreciate the generalisation, thanks. :unsure:

We love you too.

Dirk said:

Really appreciate the generalisation, thanks. :unsure:

We love you too.

Click to expand...

I know, I know. I get the same all the time. I guess it was just a "tit for tat" answer

ArghMonkey said:

I wish conservatives would take a second and outline, intelligently, what lies they see coming from the left ?

Click to expand...

You don't need a conservative to draw you a picture.
Anyone can find them if they really want to.

Here is one.
to televise health care debate

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/obama_falls_short_on_campaign_promise_5gFAG1TwuLUSW6Mn7h6hWN

ArghMonkey, everything is relative. You lean left so you automatically dismiss some conservative ideas. In reality, conservative ideas produce the most equality because in reality true equality is achieved by an equal process, not be a re-distributive end.

When you say left, I am assuming you are talking about the Obama left and not the left Dirk and David talk about? If so, I actually wrote a letter I emailed to the White House and posted online a little bit ago on this very topic: http://www.mirajpatel.com/an-open-letter-to-president-obama

And now, to return on topic- one of the important things to realize is that in recent years the "conservatives" in the US government have usually not passed conservative policies. Bush expanded the size of government drastically and spent like no other (Obama might top him there though.) That is not conservative and it has paved the way to special interest infiltration that has created further disparities in wealth.

I think you are mistaken on what the right really means. You seem to think the religious right and the right is the same, but it isn't. The religious right is a subsector of the right, but it does not exist in the entirety of the right. And even within the religious right, things are not driven by the Bible- the focus stays on the Constitution.

You say the world is better off as they are left, but I think what you really mean in Europe and Canada. And to that, I say the United States is the most prosperous nation to ever exist and it became such through conservative principles, so I have no idea how you can say you are "better off." Not only is it a matter of opinion, but in terms of the numbers, the United States has clearly had stronger growth and a quicker rise in living standards than Canada and Europe.

Now, tying this back to the topic at hand, having a smaller government and allowing the market to run its course means that free will is emphasized. The market is free will, government coercion, whether or not it is being pushed by a corporation, is not run on free will. The question here is really would you want to have an equal process- in that everyone has an equal shot at riches and success or do you want to have an equal end, in which regardless of how much one works and another sleeps, they end up with the same thing. The latter is not only unfair, but it is not sustainable over the long run. The free rider problem in economics is experienced and over time government can not afford it. Not only that, but it is susceptible to special interests- corporations and lobbying groups that try to lobby those that have so much power thanks to the government to do their will. In a small government, that corruptive risk is drastically reduced. And you might want to take a closer look at the corporation-government relationships and market growth in Canada and Europe before dismissing special interest infiltration there as well.

As per Dodge's post, I wanted to add some more on the topic of the religious right. To ArghMonkey: Please realize that while there are some religious extremists in the right, the bulk of people in the right, including those who believe in God (me included) are not crazy people. We think rationally just like you and we have chosen to believe in something that in reality neither side can prove as completely right or wrong, so you have to respect that just like we respect your decision not to believe in God. Believing in God does not make one a crazy extremist. As such, the left has its crazy extremists in the green movement as well-those who are willing to do radical things to get their agenda passed. Both sides have extremists and always will, but that should not be the focus of any intelligent debate on the ideology of either side because in the end those people are simply a very small portion of the total.

myp said:

the United States is the most prosperous nation to ever exist and it became such through conservative principles

Click to expand...

Mm, state-funded industry. Very conservative principles, yeah.