What is God?

clax · Nov 9, 2012

myp said:
The number of planets we know of and whether or not they have life is not the major variable in determining the probability of life in the universe, especially given the very small sample size of planets vs. the scope of the universe. There are conditions for life that could have been produced elsewhere and again it just comes down to scope.

same could be said for God.

myp said:
Of course there are data points. The scriptures say certain things about God- what he did, how he did it, etc. There is the scope of the universe. And then there is logic. It is much more likely that a God does not exist than a God that came to Earth, sent Jesus, made the planet, and on and on. There are such detailed stories and given the historical context in which these writings appeared and what those stories say, it just does not add up.

I am not great at explaining this, so bear with me. But take the following examples and surely you think the first example is more likely than the second:
1) God exists.
2) A God exists who did x, y, z and made a, b, c.

Option 1 is obviously more likely than 2. This is akin to the argument I am making except up that I am making one which says that a sentient God who cares about humans does not exist.

So you're telling me that a book written by Jewish people four thousand years ago to be an spiritual inspiration, is not an accurate eye witness account of the formation of our planet? That seems very illogical to make such an argument. That is based on a very narrow understanding of God.

Sure you can argue the accuracy of the Bible, but the Bible was written by man, before modern science to explain to man his existence.

If you're argument is that the Bible isn't scientifically accurate dso therefore there can be no God, that is a very illogical argument.

If that isn't your argument, please explain it.

Remember the Bible is not a piece on this chess board. The existence of biblical stories are not data points. I am referring to a creator, not a specific God.

myp · Nov 9, 2012

clax said:
same could be said for God.

No it can't. We don't know if a God can exist let alone the conditions needed for a God let alone whether this universe has those conditions.

clax said:
So you're telling me that a book written by Jewish people four thousand years ago to be an spiritual inspiration, is not an accurate eye witness account of the formation of our planet?

I am saying the probability of a lot of the things in there are awfully low and based in very little evidence even back then.

clax said:
If you're argument is that the Bible isn't scientifically accurate dso therefore there can be no God, that is a very illogical argument.

That is not my argument. I am saying the likelihood that all is true is very low.

clax said:
Remember the Bible is not a piece on this chess board. The existence of biblical stories are not data points. I am referring to a creator, not a specific God.

I used the Bible as an example. You can replace it with any other story of "God".

Hypotheses are built on reason- some data, logic, etc. Such reason doesn't exist with the God theory. And despite that, believers go beyond calling the God theory a hypothesis (which scientifically it isn't) to actively saying it IS fact and actively BELIEVING in and rooting for whether or not the hypothesis is correct.

clax · Nov 9, 2012

myp said:
No it can't. We don't know if a God can exist let alone the conditions needed for a God let alone whether this universe has those conditions.

I am saying the probability of a lot of the things in there are awfully low and based in very little evidence even back then.

That is not my argument. I am saying the likelihood that all is true is very low.

I used the Bible as an example. You can replace it with any other story of "God".

Hypotheses are built on reason- some data, logic, etc. Such reason doesn't exist with the God theory. And despite that, believers go beyond calling the God theory a hypothesis (which scientifically it isn't) to actively saying it IS fact and actively BELIEVING in and rooting for whether or not the hypothesis is correct.

The possibility of god to exist in this universe is there because all is possible in the limitless expanse.

Forget stories, they exist, their value as a data point is nothing. What of the concept if God?

myp · Nov 9, 2012

clax said:
The possibility of god to exist in this universe is there because all is possible in the limitless expanse.

Forget stories, they exist, their value as a data point is nothing. What of the concept if God?

I never denied the possibility is not there. What I am saying is that there are different probabilities and it does not make sense to believe in a God that is human-centric let alone the God in the religion books. And you can't really ignore the probabilities in such a decision.

If you know there is a 1% chance it will rain and a 99% chance it will not rain, you will behave differently than if is a 99% that it will rain vs. a 1% chance it will not. Both are possible in either circumstance, but you don't treat the two possibilities the same simply because they exist. Same idea here.

clax · Nov 9, 2012

myp said:
I never denied the possibility is not there. What I am saying is that there are different probabilities and it does not make sense to believe in a God that is human-centric let alone the God in the religion books. And you can't really ignore the probabilities in such a decision.

If you know there is a 1% chance it will rain and a 99% chance it will not rain, you will behave differently than if is a 99% that it will rain vs. a 1% chance it will not. Both are possible in either circumstance, but you don't treat the two possibilities the same simply because they exist. Same idea here.

Your probability that God exists is based on opinion, show me factual data that suggests there is no God.

And again I am not talking about folklore, there is no data there. The probability that the invaders was or is intelligently created verses accidentally occurring.

Again I don't care about religions and folklore, or other creation of man. Don't bring it up because it has nothing to do with my position nor does it yours.

myp · Nov 9, 2012

clax said:
Your probability that God exists is based on opinion, show me factual data that suggests there is no God.

There is not any notable evidence or logic that a human-centric or other God exists. There is my basis. You have nothing there to make a hypothesis on, so you can't logically believe in an outcome- at best you can say it is possible. Believing is not logically or scientifically an option.

The burden of proof is on you anyway considering you are making the claim that something unproven exists. If I said unicorns and fairies exist, it would not make sense for me to ask you to show me data why they don't, would it?

clax · Nov 9, 2012

myp said:
I never denied the possibility is not there. What I am saying is that there are different probabilities and it does not make sense to believe in a God that is human-centric let alone the God in the religion books. And you can't really ignore the probabilities in such a decision.

If you know there is a 1% chance it will rain and a 99% chance it will not rain, you will behave differently than if is a 99% that it will rain vs. a 1% chance it will not. Both are possible in either circumstance, but you don't treat the two possibilities the same simply because they exist. Same idea here.

myp said:
There is not any notable evidence or logic that a human-centric or other God exists. There is my basis. You have nothing there to make a hypothesis on, so you can't logically believe in an outcome- at best you can say it is possible. Believing is not logically or scientifically an option.

The burden of proof is on you anyway considering you are making the claim that something unproven exists. If I said unicorns and fairies exist, it would not make sense for me to ask you to show me data why they don't, would it?

Unicorns didn't create the universe, so again don't bring up folklore, it is not part of this discussion.

There is equally the lack of evidence that the universe just happened, and the burden of proof is on nobody sense the notion of proof can't exist when discussing the origin of causally.

your claim that it is illogical to believe in a God is faulty. Sense the probability that God exists is equal to him not existing.

You still have failed to show any probability of God not existing. You would have to to give any credence to your argument.

You referenced folklore but that is not data.

Can you give Abby evidence that God does not exist?

Probably lies in data, there ha to be data for there to be probability, otherwise it is pure speculation.

tecoyah · Nov 10, 2012

clax said:
Unicorns didn't create the universe, so again don't bring up folklore, it is not part of this discussion.

There is equally the lack of evidence that the universe just happened, and the burden of proof is on nobody sense the notion of proof can't exist when discussing the origin of causally.

your claim that it is illogical to believe in a God is faulty. Sense the probability that God exists is equal to him not existing.

You still have failed to show any probability of God not existing. You would have to to give any credence to your argument.

You referenced folklore but that is not data.

Can you give Abby evidence that God does not exist?

Probably lies in data, there ha to be data for there to be probability, otherwise it is pure speculation.

The attempt to prove something that does not have a means of being proven is not a useful venture. In my opinion (based on logic and lack of data), there can be no conclusion as to a God existing.

Though expecting to prove the negative may be entertaining, it seems to serve no purpose other than padding someones faith.

You cannot prove God exists.

No one can prove it does not.

So...go on believing whatever you wish.

Iolo · Nov 10, 2012

tecoyah said:
The attempt to prove something that does not have a means of being proven is not a useful venture. In my opinion (based on logic and lack of data), there can be no conclusion as to a God existing.

Though expecting to prove the negative may be entertaining, it seems to serve no purpose other than padding someones faith.

You cannot prove God exists.

No one can prove it does not.

So...go on believing whatever you wish.

I suppose we are bound to go by likelihood. At one time belief in gods was pretty well universal; before that people believed in magic, but hadn't worked through to the 'god' idea at all; as people got more aware of the unity of things they began to believe in a ONE, intervening God; then they began to doubt the interventions, which now look so unlikely that we're left with a 'God in the gaps', the gaps getting smaller and smaller. You can believe what you wish, obviously, and who is going to stop you?, but it will get more and more like believing you are a teapot, or Napoleon, I think.

clax · Nov 10, 2012

Iolo said:
I suppose we are bound to go by likelihood. At one time belief in gods was pretty well universal; before that people believed in magic, but hadn't worked through to the 'god' idea at all; as people got more aware of the unity of things they began to believe in a ONE, intervening God; then they began to doubt the interventions, which now look so unlikely that we're left with a 'God in the gaps', the gaps getting smaller and smaller. You can believe what you wish, obviously, and who is going to stop you?, but it will get more and more like believing you are a teapot, or Napoleon, I think.

Good comment ;-)

=Zoomer= · Nov 10, 2012

clax said:
Earth is unique, humanity is unique. There is no other planet out of all the ones we have discovered that has life on it, let alone sophisticated life. The odds that there is intelligent life on other planets are getting smaller

The probability that a planet can sustain life is very low, that it could sustain life long enough for it to evolve from premortalial ooze to the equaivalint to humanity is even lower. I find the notion of life on other planets, particularly intelligent life to be much the same as the notion of God.

there is absolutely no data, there is only stories passed down.

I'd be interested to check out your evidence that suggests that either Earth or humanity are unique. If we can provide some kind of evidence to Lloyds of London, I'm sure there would be a handsome reward

...it's been almost 10 years since they withdrew their contract of indemnity (a billion to 1 odds) that there was no other life in the universe. After discovering evidence of water on mars, the odds went steadily down to a low of 2 to 1 just before they decided to pull the contract entirely.

If you've been keeping up with the science and history channels, we are now able to reach many times further into space, and are now able to not only see
and evaluate stars, but the planets in their system.

You may be right, but odds say you're wrong~ just sayin'....

=Zoomer= · Nov 10, 2012

tecoyah said:
The attempt to prove something that does not have a means of being proven is not a useful venture. In my opinion (based on logic and lack of data), there can be no conclusion as to a God existing.

Though expecting to prove the negative may be entertaining, it seems to serve no purpose other than padding someones faith.

You cannot prove God exists.

No one can prove it does not.

So...go on believing whatever you wish.

Don't tell that to Steven Hawking ... (not implying I agree or disagree with him)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppBq9OCB8uo&feature=watch_response_rev

tecoyah · Nov 10, 2012

clax said:
Earth is unique, humanity is unique. There is no other planet out of all the ones we have discovered that has life on it, let alone sophisticated life. The odds that there is intelligent life on other planets are getting smaller

The probability that a planet can sustain life is very low, that it could sustain life long enough for it to evolve from premortalial ooze to the equaivalint to humanity is even lower. I find the notion of life on other planets, particularly intelligent life to be much the same as the notion of God.

there is absolutely no data, there is only stories passed down.

Given the fact that in less than twenty years we have gone from the solar system being the only place with planets, to one of over 450 so far...that current chances of life existing just within our own solar system (see Europa/Titan) are viable, and that experiments have created Amino acids from the "Primordial Ooze" you dismiss so easily...I would be far more comfortable accepting the possibility of 4.5 billion years leading to some cool stuff, than something lacking any data whatsoever.

Earth is certainly Unique...everything is. This does not equate to a creator making us feel extra special.

=Zoomer= · Nov 10, 2012

tecoyah said:
Given the fact that in less than twenty years we have gone from the solar system being the only place with planets, to one of over 450 so far...that current chances of life existing just within our own solar system (see Europa/Titan) are viable, and that experiments have created Amino acids from the "Primordial Ooze" you dismiss so easily...I would be far more comfortable accepting the possibility of 4.5 billion years leading to some cool stuff, than something lacking any data whatsoever.

Earth is certainly Unique...everything is. This does not equate to a creator making us feel extra special.

Well said!...+1...

David · Nov 10, 2012

The universe isn't an unlimited expanse. It's huge (100,000,000,000,000 LY+ and growing at FTL speed) but it is finite.

=Zoomer= · Nov 10, 2012

David said:
The universe isn't an unlimited expanse. It's huge (100,000,000,000,000 LY+ and growing at FTL speed) but it is finite.

Yes, but this universe is but a cell in the cosmos~ and is also expanding. So finite is still relative.

David · Nov 10, 2012

=Zoomer= said:
Yes, but this universe is but a cell in the cosmos~ and is also expanding. So finite is still relative.

Mind Boggling, synapse killing, sanity shattering big is still finite.

=Zoomer= · Nov 10, 2012

David said:
Mind Boggling, synapse killing, sanity shattering big is still finite.

heh! Of course you are right on the money...just couldn't resist messin' wit ya~

clax · Nov 10, 2012

tecoyah said:
Given the fact that in less than twenty years we have gone from the solar system being the only place with planets, to one of over 450 so far...that current chances of life existing just within our own solar system (see Europa/Titan) are viable, and that experiments have created Amino acids from the "Primordial Ooze" you dismiss so easily...I would be far more comfortable accepting the possibility of 4.5 billion years leading to some cool stuff, than something lacking any data whatsoever.

Earth is certainly Unique...everything is. This does not equate to a creator making us feel extra special.

I didn't dismiss that earlier, and could there be life on Europa, absolutely, I even think it existed on mars until it's geological heart died. Could there be life on other planets, I like to think so, but that is only a belief, there is zero probability supporting it. We have discovered 786 planets. not one is capable of supporting life. Outside of bacteria. most are not even remotely capable of supporting life. Right now, the probability is one in 786.

You can't even establish probability variables to say weather or not God exists, if you can I'd like to see them.

If everything is unique, nothing is, unique means like no other

clax · Nov 10, 2012

David said:
The universe isn't an unlimited expanse. It's huge (100,000,000,000,000 LY+ and growing at FTL speed) but it is finite.

How do you know that?

What is God?

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