Why do atheists believe in magic?

Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

Southern Dad said:
Ralph47, capital punishment is seen by many countries of the world as barbaric treatment of people. Think about it, it comes from the Bible. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. We kill people, as a punishment for killing people. Now, personally, I'm in favor of the death penalty. I am simply pointing out that just because it isn't our way doesn't make it wrong. Who gets to determine what is barbaric. You gave cutting off the hand of a thief as your example. We put the thief in cell for years of their lives.

Can't you walk & chew gum too? (i.e. answer my question AND post your spiel)

You are being FAR too politically correct!!! - hello?!

As far as capital punishment goes: We give the condemned the same courtesy as surplus puppies & kitties get at the overloaded shelter; they simply go to sleep and don't wake up, just like Michael Jackson did to himself.

Southern Dad · Sep 21, 2018

Ralph47 said:
Can't you walk & chew gum too? (i.e. answer my question AND post your spiel)

You are being FAR too politically correct!!! - hello?!

As far as capital punishment goes: We give the condemned the same courtesy as surplus puppies & kitties get at the overloaded shelter; they simply go to sleep and don't wake up, just like Michael Jackson did to himself.

You miss the point. Many people in the world see our executing a criminal as barbaric even if we do it in what we consider to be a humane way. You see cutting the hand off of a thief as barbaric, why? The punishment for the crime isn't a secret, it's in the Quran. Is it any more cruel to put a thief in a 6' x 9' cell for a few years?

Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

Southern Dad said:
You miss the point. Many people in the world see our executing a criminal as barbaric even if we do it in what we consider to be a humane way. You see cutting the hand off of a thief as barbaric, why? The punishment for the crime isn't a secret, it's in the Quran. Is it any more cruel to put a thief in a 6' x 9' cell for a few years?

I got your point several explanations ago! But why can't we agree that behavior from medieval times is NOT appropriate today?!

Southern Dad · Sep 21, 2018

Ralph47 said:
I got your point several explanations ago! But why can't we agree that behavior from medieval times is NOT appropriate today?!

I know where you are trying to get me to go with this but it isn't happening. Capital Punishment, which is considered acceptable in much of the United States is that not an example of behavior from medieval times or even before? Are prisons not punishments dating before medieval times? If the law says cutting off the hand of a thief is the punishment, it's the law. You can work to change the law but don't steal, it could result in you becoming a lefty. (You not meaning you personally but the person who would break that law.)

How do you think Canadians look upon the United State's use of capital punishment? They see it as barbaric.

Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

Southern Dad said:
I know where you are trying to get me to go with this but it isn't happening. Capital Punishment, which is considered acceptable in much of the United States is that not an example of behavior from medieval times or even before? Are prisons not punishments dating before medieval times? If the law says cutting off the hand of a thief is the punishment, it's the law. You can work to change the law but don't steal, it could result in you becoming a lefty. (You not meaning you personally but the person who would break that law.)

How do you think Canadians look upon the United State's use of capital punishment? They see it as barbaric.

Barbaric means CRUEL punishment. Just like hysterical people are hyperbolic about waterboarding being "cruel", the same type people feel the same hyperbole towards modern (1st world) punishment. Neither capital punishment nor prison is cruel. They are not; the heinous criminals simply go to sleep and wake up, and the prisoners get their basic human needs met, but it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A PICNIC, otherwise when they get out they'll go right back to crime.

Southern Dad · Sep 21, 2018

Ralph47 said:
Barbaric means CRUEL punishment. Just like hysterical people are hyperbolic about waterboarding being "cruel", the same type people feel the same hyperbole towards modern (1st world) punishment. Neither capital punishment nor prison is cruel. They are not; the heinous criminals simply go to sleep and wake up, and the prisoners get their basic human needs met, but it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A PICNIC, otherwise when they get out they'll go right back to crime.

Killing a person wouldn't fit into the definition of cruel? It is pretty final. I find it interesting that you see the cutting off a thief's hand as barbaric but not the killing of a murderer.

David · Sep 21, 2018

My take is this:
There is no such thing as unnatural as such a thing wouldn't, you know, exist. Since all thing are natural, all things can be known (through this isn't to say all CAN be known as that would require ominicence). So now let's break this down. Science is the ability, through logic, observation and experimentation, to explain nature. Magic is the ability to USE nature yet lack an understanding of how it works.

Magic and science are 2 sides of the same coin. To say magic doesn't exist is to ignore human ability to comprehend nature, to believe that humans must have everything spelled out to us 1st. Put another way, I can wave my hand, speak an 'incarnation' and banish light from a room, summon disembodied music, make a camera fly or let the pizza place down the road know I want food. If that's not magic, than neither is Harry Potter or LotR. It's only science becuase the technology behind it can be fully explained.

arcturus88 · Sep 21, 2018

David said:
My take is this:
There is no such thing as unnatural as such a thing wouldn't, you know, exist. Since all thing are natural, all things can be known .

well said, magic and supernatural are just unexplained naturals.

though I don't think I can buy the purple text (I can't seem to bold text anymore). our brains may comprehend certain things and not others. by example we can't see certain wave lengths or hear certain pitches. our brain likewise may not be able to know or understand certain truths.

David · Sep 21, 2018

arcturus88 said:
we can't see certain wave lengths

Not true, humans can see ultraviolet but the lenses on our eyes filter it out. during WW2, some Brits that had undergone eye surgery (allowing ultraviolet light into their eyes though this was a side effect and not the goal) used the ability to send 'invisible' ship to land messages.

Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

Southern Dad said:
Killing a person wouldn't fit into the definition of cruel? It is pretty final. I find it interesting that you see the cutting off a thief's hand as barbaric but not the killing of a murderer.

Face it - ONLY the most heinous of crime are actually given execution (i.e. mass murderers). It is not administered willy nilly!

Southern Dad · Sep 21, 2018

Ralph47 said:
Face it - ONLY the most heinous of crime are actually given execution (i.e. mass murderers). It is not administered willy nilly!

Good point, cutting off hands in countries like Saudi Arabia doesn't happen all willy nilly, either. The Quran actually has a specific set of circumstances including at least two witnesses or a confession, the person who owned the item has to want it back, and the item had to have value. The person wronged can actually, after sentencing forgive the thief. Imagine if the person wronged could forgive the thief in this country. As I said, I've traveled in Saudi Arabia. There are not people everywhere with just one hand. It is very rare.

Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

Southern Dad said:
Good point, cutting off hands in countries like Saudi Arabia doesn't happen all willy nilly, either. The Quran actually has a specific set of circumstances including at least two witnesses or a confession, the person who owned the item has to want it back, and the item had to have value. The person wronged can actually, after sentencing forgive the thief. Imagine if the person wronged could forgive the thief in this country. As I said, I've traveled in Saudi Arabia. There are not people everywhere with just one hand. It is very rare.

The facts remains that either the death sentence or prison in the U.S. are not cruel, whilst cutting a hand off indeed is.

tecoyah · Sep 21, 2018

arcturus88 said:
you can explain away mysticism and magic, but the human soul still wants to go there. its like its embedded in us to seek out what we can't see or explain.

For some (many) this quest takes the form of science and the wonders created by learning new things....making magic unnecessary.

Southern Dad · Sep 21, 2018

Ralph47 said:
The facts remains that either the death sentence or prison in the U.S. are not cruel, whilst cutting a hand off indeed is.

That is your opinion. Not everyone has that same opinion. There are people, all over the world that think our use of capital punishment is barbaric.

Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

arcturus88 said:
you can explain away mysticism and magic, but the human soul still wants to go there. its like its embedded in us to seek out what we can't see or explain.

For some odd reason, certain individuals want to believe there are things that go bump in the night. Always have over the ages, always will. The extreme of those, believe it so much that they believe without even a doubt they do.

Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

Southern Dad said:
That is your opinion. Not everyone has that same opinion. There are people, all over the world that think our use of capital punishment is barbaric.

Their rhetoric is hyperbole. They've heard a lot of bad (fake) stories no doubt. Many of their ancestors believed in slavery no doubt.

Southern Dad · Sep 21, 2018

Ralph47 said:
Their rhetoric is hyperbole. They've heard a lot of bad (fake) stories no doubt. Many of their ancestors believed in slavery no doubt.

But you think that cutting the hand off of a thief is barbaric, right? Here you are judging these people but blowing off others judgement of the US using capital punishment. What is barbaric is a matter of opinion.

Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

Southern Dad said:
But you think that cutting the hand off of a thief is barbaric, right? Here you are judging these people but blowing off others judgement of the US using capital punishment. What is barbaric is a matter of opinion.

If you can't see what is barbaric or not, I feel sorry for you.

What is barbarism and what are torture are the same; PERMANENT physical damage to a continuing living individual.

Southern Dad · Sep 21, 2018

Ralph47 said:
If you can't see what is barbaric or not, I feel sorry for you.

What is barbarism and what are torture are the same; PERMANENT physical damage to a continuing living individual.

I support the death penalty. I was simply pointing out to you that others see it as barbaric. Just like you see chopping off a hand to be barbaric.

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Ralph47 · Sep 21, 2018

Southern Dad said:
I support the death penalty. I was simply pointing out to you that others see it as barbaric. Just like you see chopping off a hand to be barbaric.

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I don't disagree with you and believe so myself, that there are some (loons) that see regular ole prison as barbaric. But they don't have an alternative to keep society SAFE!!!

Why do atheists believe in magic?

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