United DEMOCRATIC Nations

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
What you're describing sounds a lot like the US, a republic.

gary

That's the point gary. America is a republic, not a democracy and I feel a republic>democracy, which is why I am asking you why you are stressing democracy in this organization and not a republic.

As for fewer actual direct decision-makers- it still sides with the minority in have at least some representative. The chances of a tyranny by majority are lower.
 
Sep 2011
28
0
That's the point gary. America is a republic, not a democracy and I feel a republic>democracy, which is why I am asking you why you are stressing democracy in this organization and not a republic.

As for fewer actual direct decision-makers- it still sides with the minority in have at least some representative. The chances of a tyranny by majority are lower.

You didn't answer my earlier question...out of this nation of 100 people, how many would make the decision? If your answer is less than 51, then I would say that your form of government is less representative of the people. That may be as you like it, but it is still a mathematical reality.

gary
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
You didn't answer my earlier question...out of this nation of 100 people, how many would make the decision? If your answer is less than 51, then I would say that your form of government is less representative of the people. That may be as you like it, but it is still a mathematical reality.

gary
The people still elect their representatives in a republic. They might not make a direct decision, but they make a decision to give power to those who will make decisions. A direct democracy has the potential to make the votes of 49 people effectively useless if the other 51 agree on everything and oppose the 49 on everything. In a republic that has a checks and balances system, perhaps a constitution, etc. that 49 has a chance at getting their views through (as do the 51 on other issues) even if the other 51 disagree with the 49 on everything.
 
Sep 2011
28
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The people still elect their representatives in a republic. They might not make a direct decision, but they make a decision to give power to those who will make decisions. A direct democracy has the potential to make the votes of 49 people effectively useless if the other 51 agree on everything and oppose the 49 on everything. In a republic that has a checks and balances system, perhaps a constitution, etc. that 49 has a chance at getting their views through (as do the 51 on other issues) even if the other 51 disagree with the 49 on everything.

Ultimately you do not trust direct representation. You would rather have one person make the decision than 51. In my way of thinking that moves us in the wrong direction. As a citizen I prefer more influence with my government, not less.

"Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time."
-- E. B. White

gary
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Ultimately you do not trust direct representation. You would rather have one person make the decision than 51. In my way of thinking that moves us in the wrong direction. As a citizen I prefer more influence with my government, not less.

"Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time."
-- E. B. White

gary

One person cannot make a decision in a republic. You still need a certain votes- usually a majority or supermajority of representatives, all who are elected. I am not making the worries of the tyranny of a majority up. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and other founding fathers were very concerned about it. There is plenty of political philosophy writing on the matter. Direct democracy DOES NOT give fair representation to all peoples and in some cases it can be very tyrannous. Just because you have a majority doesn't mean anything- what is a majority other than the top half+1 beating down on the bottom in cases where only the top half+1 benefits and the others get hurt?
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
One person cannot make a decision in a republic. You still need a certain votes- usually a majority or supermajority of representatives, all who are elected. I am not making the worries of the tyranny of a majority up. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and other founding fathers were very concerned about it. There is plenty of political philosophy writing on the matter. Direct democracy DOES NOT give fair representation to all peoples and in some cases it can be very tyrannous. Just because you have a majority doesn't mean anything- what is a majority other than the top half+1 beating down on the bottom in cases where only the top half+1 benefits and the others get hurt?

Sure they can, republics don't have to be democratic.
 
Aug 2011
448
0
California
One person cannot make a decision in a republic..............

Tell that to Obama, who keeps thwarting the will of Congress through departmental directives. A great example is Cap & Trade: Congress voted it down, so instead he is implementing it anyway through the EPA. Same goes for the DOM. He is not defending it in the courts, and thus allowing it to be destroyed by way of his violation of his oath of office to uphold the laws.

Our governmentet only works when we have people in it who won't subvert it. But our government is easily subverted by big government liberal types, and Obama is just the guy who is willing to do it, and who HAS done it.
 
Sep 2011
28
0
One person cannot make a decision in a republic. You still need a certain votes- usually a majority or supermajority of representatives, all who are elected. I am not making the worries of the tyranny of a majority up. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and other founding fathers were very concerned about it. There is plenty of political philosophy writing on the matter. Direct democracy DOES NOT give fair representation to all peoples and in some cases it can be very tyrannous. Just because you have a majority doesn't mean anything- what is a majority other than the top half+1 beating down on the bottom in cases where only the top half+1 benefits and the others get hurt?

While Jefferson and Adams were great men, that doesn't mean they had it all figured out. They had slaves and didn't allow women to vote. So rather than think they were gods and their ideas are cast in stone, I would prefer to constantly evolve our republic, specifically towards being MORE democratic.

gary
 
Sep 2011
28
0
Tell that to Obama, who keeps thwarting the will of Congress through departmental directives. A great example is Cap & Trade: Congress voted it down, so instead he is implementing it anyway through the EPA. Same goes for the DOM. He is not defending it in the courts, and thus allowing it to be destroyed by way of his violation of his oath of office to uphold the laws.

Our governmentet only works when we have people in it who won't subvert it. But our government is easily subverted by big government liberal types, and Obama is just the guy who is willing to do it, and who HAS done it.

Good points. I have an idea. Let's vote on Cap & Trade. Any issue of this significance should be directly voted on by the people.

gary
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
Good points. I have an idea. Let's vote on Cap & Trade. Any issue of this significance should be directly voted on by the people.

gary

But the people are stupid, uneducated, illiterate fools 9 times out of 10.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
While Jefferson and Adams were great men, that doesn't mean they had it all figured out. They had slaves and didn't allow women to vote. So rather than think they were gods and their ideas are cast in stone, I would prefer to constantly evolve our republic, specifically towards being MORE democratic.

gary
Those examples are merely ad hominem attacks on the founding fathers in this context because they aren't relevant to their governing preferences. A lot of that is due to what was socially acceptable at the time.

Either way, they aren't the only ones.

Sorry, but I am not going to support a 51 man majority screwing over and potentially stealing from the other 49. If you think that's fair, so be it, but I do not.

There is also a logistical issue with direct democracy in which everyone probably can't vote on every single issue even if they wanted to. For example, if you have government institutions, who will make the calls within them? At one point or another it will come down to a representative. Everyone can't vote on everything.
 
Sep 2011
28
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But the people are stupid, uneducated, illiterate fools 9 times out of 10.

And how does a republic fix that? Those same stupid, uneducated, illiterate fools are supposed to somehow temporarily achieve wisdom just long enough to vote for a representative? All forms of governance are vulnerable to ignorance.
 
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Sep 2011
28
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Those examples are merely ad hominem attacks on the founding fathers in this context because they aren't relevant to their governing preferences. A lot of that is due to what was socially acceptable at the time.

Either way, they aren't the only ones.

Sorry, but I am not going to support a 51 man majority screwing over and potentially stealing from the other 49. If you think that's fair, so be it, but I do not.
Right. You'd rather be screwed over by a SINGLE individual. Your logic of somehow achieving a higher level of intelligence through representation, even though you don't trust the very people who put the person in office, defies logic.

There is also a logistical issue with direct democracy in which everyone probably can't vote on every single issue even if they wanted to. For example, if you have government institutions, who will make the calls within them? At one point or another it will come down to a representative. Everyone can't vote on everything.
I'm not really proposing that we vote on every single governmental decision. But on anything of great significance, like whether we should be occupying Iraq or Afghanistan, or whether we should spend billions to bail out corporations, those are issues I personally would prefer to vote on. Fortunately for us technology continues to advance and more frequent voting becomes all that much more practical if we chose to do so.

gary
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Right. You'd rather be screwed over by a SINGLE individual. Your logic of somehow achieving a higher level of intelligence through representation, even though you don't trust the very people who put the person in office, defies logic.
Noo. Again, you vote for representatives. So you are still playing a role in the decision making process and as you accepted below, even in your version of direct dem you'd have representation at some level- somewhere where you pass on the decision making process. And no it does not defy logic- these are heavily discussed issues in the realm of political philosophy and when people who write and think about these things for all their lives, including some of the most famous pro-freedom philosophers, to say I am being illogical is foolish. You can also look at it statistically and see the benefits of representation from a voting standpoint for minority groups.

Furthermore, consider other hindrances to power collection such as checks and balances and a constitution- much easier to create in a republic than a democracy.

I'm not really proposing that we vote on every single governmental decision. But on anything of great significance, like whether we should be occupying Iraq or Afghanistan, or whether we should spend billions to bail out corporations, those are issues I personally would prefer to vote on. Fortunately for us technology continues to advance and more frequent voting becomes all that much more practical if we chose to do so.

gary
What is big and is not big is subjective and therein lies one of many problems with your system.
 
Sep 2011
28
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Noo. Again, you vote for representatives. So you are still playing a role in the decision making process and as you accepted below, even in your version of direct dem you'd have representation at some level- somewhere where you pass on the decision making process. And no it does not defy logic- these are heavily discussed issues in the realm of political philosophy and when people who write and think about these things for all their lives, including some of the most famous pro-freedom philosophers, to say I am being illogical is foolish. You can also look at it statistically and see the benefits of representation from a voting standpoint for minority groups.

Furthermore, consider other hindrances to power collection such as checks and balances and a constitution- much easier to create in a republic than a democracy.


What is big and is not big is subjective and therein lies one of many problems with your system.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I want as much democracy as possible...as few layers between me and the decisions of government as possible. To me governance can be represented as a straight line, with dictatorship on one extreme and pure democracy on the other. Representative democracy as implemented in the US is an inch or two shy of pure democracy. And by definition that makes it an inch or two closer to dictatorship.

And since I enjoy quotes so much, I'll throw out one more of my favorites...

"The cure for the evils of democracy is more democracy."
- H. L. Mencken

gary
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Agreed. Nice having a respectful discussion with someone. One last question though- why should the current United States (or most of Europe, India, etc.) join your UDN if they are not democracies? When it comes to the US, the constitution specifically specifies a republic with checks and balances- I am not sure joining a pro-democracy organization really helps support that.
 
Sep 2011
28
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Agreed. Nice having a respectful discussion with someone. One last question though- why should the current United States (or most of Europe, India, etc.) join your UDN if they are not democracies? When it comes to the US, the constitution specifically specifies a republic with checks and balances- I am not sure joining a pro-democracy organization really helps support that.

The US is a republic, but functionally it's also a representative democracy. No nation is 100% democratic, so obviously it becomes a value judgement, whether a nation is democratic enough be be a member. Why would we want to join? To increase world peace. That of course assumes one subscribes to the theory that increased democratic representation leads to increased peace. If only for the peaceful elections (as opposed to the violent revolutions you see with dictatorships), democracy is a more peaceful system for replacing leadership, wouldn't you agree?

gary
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
The US is a republic, but functionally it's also a representative democracy. No nation is 100% democratic, so obviously it becomes a value judgement, whether a nation is democratic enough be be a member. Why would we want to join? To increase world peace. That of course assumes one subscribes to the theory that increased democratic representation leads to increased peace. If only for the peaceful elections (as opposed to the violent revolutions you see with dictatorships), democracy is a more peaceful system for replacing leadership, wouldn't you agree?

gary
I am not sure there is an inherent value in democracy that maintains peace. Perhaps the added utility of choice might lead to that, but I am not sure. I can say with confidence, however, that peaceful transition of power is not limited to democracies nor is democracy completely resistant from violent takeover. No system of government endorses violent takeover (or plans it), but they usually happen when someone wants power, the people starve, etc. Someone can violently takeover a democratically controlled government too.

All that aside, I believe that if you are in this to deter war and promote peace, the policy position to take is promoting free trade (not necessarily an inherent democratic value despite a few big historical correlations). Because if there is one thing that most people accept it is that money has a lot of power in the world and when the costs of war are so great that it could have severe ramifications for a country or more yet the people and their livelihoods, the benefits of war quickly get drowned in the benefits of peace.
 
Sep 2011
28
0
I am not sure there is an inherent value in democracy that maintains peace. Perhaps the added utility of choice might lead to that, but I am not sure. I can say with confidence, however, that peaceful transition of power is not limited to democracies nor is democracy completely resistant from violent takeover. No system of government endorses violent takeover (or plans it), but they usually happen when someone wants power, the people starve, etc. Someone can violently takeover a democratically controlled government too.

All that aside, I believe that if you are in this to deter war and promote peace, the policy position to take is promoting free trade (not necessarily an inherent democratic value despite a few big historical correlations). Because if there is one thing that most people accept it is that money has a lot of power in the world and when the costs of war are so great that it could have severe ramifications for a country or more yet the people and their livelihoods, the benefits of war quickly get drowned in the benefits of peace.

Obviously no system is immune to violence or violent transition. But that's not the question. The question is which system has a stronger likelihood of peaceful transition, a democracy or a dictatorship. Given the current event of the last year, do you really have a question in your mind on this one?

As for free trade, I agree...that helps encourage peace, if only because it opens up otherwise closed systems. China is a great example of this...a dictatorship that is increasingly struggling to keep their grip on the people because free trade exposes the people to alternatives. Capitalism is a benefit to world peace. Another example of this is North Korea. In this case the dictator choses to keep the people in the dark by NOT promoting free trade and communication. Keeping people in the dark is a well established trademark of dictators.

gary
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Obviously no system is immune to violence or violent transition. But that's not the question. The question is which system has a stronger likelihood of peaceful transition, a democracy or a dictatorship. Given the current event of the last year, do you really have a question in your mind on this one?
The events of recent times are only correlationary evidence against non-democracies, but not actual causal relationships (at least not proven just by their existence). You can take another correlationary example in China where you would probably agree with me that there is little coup risk right now. Not saying democracies don't promote peace, but I am also saying I don't know if they do. Not something that is intuitive most likely. Also, the question arises with this on when a coup is justified. Sucession (which might be seen as some sort of overthrow) was justified by the founding fathers and anyone for self-determination will possibly be open to it.

As for free trade, I agree...that helps encourage peace, if only because it opens up otherwise closed systems. China is a great example of this...a dictatorship that is increasingly struggling to keep their grip on the people because free trade exposes the people to alternatives. Capitalism is a benefit to world peace. Another example of this is North Korea. In this case the dictator choses to keep the people in the dark by NOT promoting free trade and communication. Keeping people in the dark is a well established trademark of dictators.

gary
That is not the point I was making with free trade- instead that the benefits of trade (and subsequent loss of those benefits upon a declaration of war [should trade be deterred which it almost always is]) between two countries increases the costs of war. Your example here might actually not promote peace if people realize they want democracy instead of communism, dictatorship, etc. and revolt. Arguably not a bad thing, but it isn't an argument against an overthrow or for domestic peace.
 
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