Obama's "Bipartisan" Stimulus

[omej]

Obamas stimulus package was finally approved by the House and Senate. It went through the House without a single Republican vote (and 7 Dems against). Only 3 GOP senators voted for it.

It looks like all the bipartisan meetings on the hill were for show and tell, this bill went through completely one sided.

 

[myp]

A few of the Democrats actually flipped sides and also voted against it after they realized how unreasonable the whole thing is. I mean, no one even had the time to read the whole thing because it was virtually impossible to do so between the time the bill was written and when it was voted on. This sort of political irresponsibility will only hurt us.

 

[The Parakeet]

I think the thing that worries me most is the lack of information on just how it will actually help the various sectors. They forced this one through, and it just seems to throw a bunch of money at Democratic pet projects. A lot of them are noble and deserve money, but where is the actual stimulus?

I was frankly much more impressed with Gordon Brown's proposal. Obama is missing the key idea. You can't just do a bunch of make-work jobs and expect them to fix the economy. You need to make sure that the jobs are doing real improvements. I believe Brown's proposal for the UK did more worthwhile improvements, like a larger broadband network and actual utilization of alternative energy.

I think it's also a little reckless to throw more money at alternative energy. There was just a huge crash in the ethanol market. Factories in the US are basically just producing enough to meet Federal quotas and get their subsidies. I wish they put a little more thought into this thing.

 

[myp]

The problem is that many politicians on Capitol Hill, President Obama included, are trying to make this a speedy stimulus because they think the economy is getting worse everyday. I understand the urgency they see, but they really need to realize that taking the time to review and perfect it would do much more than simply throwing money at the problem. I am actually against the stimulus and I probably still would had they reviewed it, but atleast by reviewing it they have a plan. Right now they are just throwing taxpayer money around and this will really hurt us in the future.

 

[The Parakeet]

I also just realized something after reading an editorial from the college's newspaper (Most use I've gotten out of one since I used one as cover during a sudden rainstorm ).

The CBO has released the budget breakdown. Only about $185 billion is being spent this year. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? What kind of stimulus plan doesn't have the money flow in fully for three years? This is the exact same thing we were trashing Bush for with his flawed tax cuts. How does that stimulate anything?

 

[myp]

I also just realized something after reading an editorial from the college's newspaper (Most use I've gotten out of one since I used one as cover during a sudden rainstorm ).

The CBO has released the budget breakdown. Only about $185 billion is being spent this year. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? What kind of stimulus plan doesn't have the money flow in fully for three years? This is the exact same thing we were trashing Bush for with his flawed tax cuts. How does that stimulate anything?

Exactly. This plan has been rushed and no one that supports it has really thought about it enough. I find it really ironic that Michelle Obama criticized Bush for tax cuts that gave Americans about $600 year, which she said was too low back then because the current plan gives about the same amount of benefit to those same Americans.

Also, the CBO is actually against this stimulus as they believe the debt it takes on will be treacherous and the stimulus won't do much. Yet, those supporting it still insist on passing it. I really wish I could see what is going on in their heads...

 

[The Parakeet]

Yeah. CBO didn't seem to be thrilled about the extra deficit. We're probably going to take a $400 billion hit next year according to their estimates.

I was just going to slap this on an edit, but the Wall Street Journal has a full breakdown of the plan. For the moment you don't need a subscription to view it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123458384689487271.html

 

[samkenwick]

I am posing a simple question

If you were given a choice, to give your 300 dollar stimulus package up to the greater good of the country, in some way shape or form, would you do it? The third eye can see everything and knows where the valuable resources need to go, but there also needs to be an increase in spending to help certain sectors of business. Why not do away with the entire spending equation, and GIVE the 300 or 600 or whatever dollars the stimulus package is to the sectors in need. Americans are not, statistically speaking, givers. Dog eat dog right, businesses are competitive, so is life, etc.

In doing the correct thing I would be willing to give me 300 dollars back for the greater good. The problem is, I am not intelligent enough to know where my 300 needs to be allocated to in order to bring about the most positive outcome. But I am sure if we reverse fish, and everybody in the upper middle and lower class income groups gave 20 dollars, once per year, we may be able to change things, what do you all think?

 

[deanhills]

If you were given a choice, to give your 300 dollar stimulus package up to the greater good of the country, in some way shape or form, would you do it? The third eye can see everything and knows where the valuable resources need to go, but there also needs to be an increase in spending to help certain sectors of business. Why not do away with the entire spending equation, and GIVE the 300 or 600 or whatever dollars the stimulus package is to the sectors in need. Americans are not, statistically speaking, givers. Dog eat dog right, businesses are competitive, so is life, etc.

Exactly, it's supposed to be a capitalistic system, and since there are serious flaws in the banking system, the banking system should be allowed to go its natural "death" route. Obviously it needs to be re-created from the roots as in its present form it has grown away from capitalist to institutions that are too large, and too distant from its customers. For example the real estate investment instruments that were created for loans that failed, had been completely invisible, still are invisible. I believe in those old credit unions (that had been gobbled up during the nineties when the banks had been allowed to grow so big) that served their direct communities, and that if there is a bail-out, that the old banks be allowed to die and that money be used to create new banks to serve its direct communities. The big banks are also really more focussed on BIG customers and BIG institutions. So indirectly the people in the street are supporting BIG business to stay the same, including wanting to still be paid BIG bonusses as before. In order to create something new, things have to be done new, the natural capitalistic way:shy:

 

[curious]

I think they had to do something fast, for a number of reasons.

First, the Great Depression lasted so long partly because no one did anything for forever. The more you do early, hopefully the shallower the recession will be.

Second, the goal isn't to get the economy back into good shape, really, the goal is simply to avoid another Great Depression. That's the big fear, the elephant in the room. Everyone seems to think this is just a slightly bigger bump in the road, but it isn't. If we don't hit depression-level unemployment levels, we'll be doing good.

Third, it's important that we appear to be attacking the problem in lots of different ways. It's important that we have something to debate about. And it is better for the future if we debate about what is being done rather than turn into a gloom and doom population (reflecting my views, in essence).

And you can't complain on one hand that it was rushed through and not evaluated properly, and then turn around and complain that it is going too slowly. If it they had taken endless time to debate everything, that would mean even more delay. Because refining the plan wouldn't make the money flow sooner.

Also, I don't see what is wrong with the projects. In spite of all the attention earmarks get, they are a tiny, tiny portion of the budet. And they can be good. They took the earmark off of some bridge money in Wasilla, Alaska, and what that meant was Sarah Palin could use the money for anything she wanted. Earmarks were intended to guarantee the funds weren't misappropriated.

Anyway, most of the money is going to infrastructure, and each state is deciding how to use it. I think Maryland is using theirs to fix potholes. And one of the criteria was that there had to already be plans ready to go.

 

[deanhills]

I think they had to do something fast, for a number of reasons.

First, the Great Depression lasted so long partly because no one did anything for forever. The more you do early, hopefully the shallower the recession will be.

Second, the goal isn't to get the economy back into good shape, really, the goal is simply to avoid another Great Depression. That's the big fear, the elephant in the room. Everyone seems to think this is just a slightly bigger bump in the road, but it isn't. If we don't hit depression-level unemployment levels, we'll be doing good.

Third, it's important that we appear to be attacking the problem in lots of different ways. It's important that we have something to debate about. And it is better for the future if we debate about what is being done rather than turn into a gloom and doom population (reflecting my views, in essence).

And you can't complain on one hand that it was rushed through and not evaluated properly, and then turn around and complain that it is going too slowly. If it they had taken endless time to debate everything, that would mean even more delay. Because refining the plan wouldn't make the money flow sooner.

Also, I don't see what is wrong with the projects. In spite of all the attention earmarks get, they are a tiny, tiny portion of the budet. And they can be good. They took the earmark off of some bridge money in Wasilla, Alaska, and what that meant was Sarah Palin could use the money for anything she wanted. Earmarks were intended to guarantee the funds weren't misappropriated.

Anyway, most of the money is going to infrastructure, and each state is deciding how to use it. I think Maryland is using theirs to fix potholes. And one of the criteria was that there had to already be plans ready to go.

Well first one has to ask where the 1.2 trillion dollars are going to come from? As obviously this has to be loaned from somewhere, and when it does a second question. How is that going to affect the US dollar? And is it not possible that you will create a depression out of this kind of avoiding a depression?

Then I also think that harping on the depression of the thirties is fear-mongering. I have seen too little substance in factual presentations of the bank debts to be able to make a sound analysis of whether we are looking at a depression of the thirties. The US and UK Governments made big statements about it that were drummed effectively by the media, but where is the evidence in terms of statements?

By letting the banks fail, it will be doing the exact same as going into a 1.2 trillion loan that has to be obtained from somewhere, in fact if you take a big picture, perhaps not letting the banks fail would be a worse choice of action, as by letting them fail is not doing "nothing", but is allowing businesses that have been badly managed to go their natural course.

I really think there is a need for a Watchdog Committee to check up on the Government as the Government is not supposed to be in the business of business. We need real finance experts to check up on what they are doing on behalf of the people who approved the bail-out package.

 

[curious]

We should have had a watchdog committee when all that deregulation was taking place.

The impact of letting Lehman Brothers fail should be a lesson in what happens if there is a perception that governments are going to let everything go down the tubes.

And the choice wasn't about letting banks fail, but about whether to let the whole system come apart.

As far as understanding it, we aren't going to. All those derivitative products were cooked up by people with doctorates in mathematics and physics (essentially applied math). There is no way we are going to understand it.

 

[deanhills]

The impact of letting Lehman Brothers fail should be a lesson in what happens if there is a perception that governments are going to let everything go down the tubes.

Lehman Brothers failed because they did bad and greedy investment deals. To blame that on the Government is very unfair. Rather blame it on the investment and banking industry that have become much too innovative in accounting and investment products. Where were the days when you could see your friendly banker around the corner and where you could deal in straight up and down stocks and shares?

 

[The Parakeet]

The point remains though. We let Lehman collapse and felt really good and moral about it. The financial fallout claimed how many innocent jobs though? The market froze and we've been fighting that collapse in confidence ever since.

Like Curious said, it wasn't a matter of judging the banks and letting them reap what they sowed. It was a decision about whether we would let the financial industry collapse or not. We could let it collapse and take half the economy with it, or bite our tongues and help them through it with the promise that they'd get their comeuppance soon.

You don't shoot at all the snakes in your lifeboat before you get to shore.

 

[curious]

Well, the government changed the rules to allow the creative accounting. All of these things were illegal ten years ago.

If they hadn't let Lehman fail, they would have given the impression that every bank would be saved. That perception alone would have greatly reduced the fallout from all of this, because there would be more confidence that things would work out. Once again, the Bush administration blew it.

 

[deanhills]

The point remains though. We let Lehman collapse and felt really good and moral about it. The financial fallout claimed how many innocent jobs though? The market froze and we've been fighting that collapse in confidence ever since.

Like Curious said, it wasn't a matter of judging the banks and letting them reap what they sowed. It was a decision about whether we would let the financial industry collapse or not. We could let it collapse and take half the economy with it, or bite our tongues and help them through it with the promise that they'd get their comeuppance soon.

You don't shoot at all the snakes in your lifeboat before you get to shore.

I wonder however whether we always have the right picture of things. Was Lehman the only company involved for example, as clearly there must have been others in similar predicaments and they had been saved without funfare and possibly it was not in the interest of others to receive the nitty gritty details. I sincerely believe that the financial services industry have been in trouble for much longer than September last year. When a decision was made to let Lehman fail, it must have come after months of trying to save the company. I am also certain there is much happening right in this moment that we are not hearing about. On a "need to know" basis. I hate that! Especially since we heard that rhetoric during Obama's election campaign about making the process much more transparent. Instead it has just become murkier for me to understand and much more complicated.

 

[curious]

Unfortunately, I think it was just a bad decision, based on the idea that it was only important to save the really, really big institutions. They figured Lehman was one of the smallest of the bigger guys, and it wouldn't have much impact. But what they did was insert uncertainty into the situation. Given there seemed to be no rationale for letting Lehman go down, it fostered the impression that every company was vulnerable and might be abandoned on a whim.

 

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