The science of gun crimes

myp

Jan 2009
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Me and you disagree over the 2nd amendment- clearly there can be disagreement over it. It is not necessarily a disagreement over whether it should be because we both think it should. I just don't think it says people should be able to have AK-47s or even some of the rifles they can have today. Beyond that, arms can be anything including bombs- do you think bombs should be legal to have too? And me, tecoyah, etc. have already addressed the point of criminals still having guns- it is you and misterveritis that think you have the perfect option whereas most of the rest of us realize there is no perfect option and that yours has flaws just as ours do, but that it is all relative in terms of outcome including deaths (which includes accidental deaths and the ease of grabbing an automatic or semi-automatic weapon, etc.).
 
May 2009
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USA
Under Article III, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution, the judicial power is vested in the Supreme Court, and such other lower federal courts as the Congress may establish, with jurisdiction over cases and controversies arising under the Constitution and substantial cases where there is diversity of citizenship subject to the limitations of the Eleventh Amendment. To say only wnat matters is written in the consititution only begs the question of its intrepretation. In this, the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of the interpretation of the Constitution, and its decisions are binding as law, until overturned by the court or by constitutional amendment. Indeed, it would not be possible for the court to exercise that grant of jurisdiction over cases arising under the Constitution without interpreting its provisions.
 
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Jan 2012
1,975
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Me and you disagree over the 2nd amendment- clearly there can be disagreement over it. It is not necessarily a disagreement over whether it should be because we both think it should. I just don't think it says people should be able to have AK-47s or even some of the rifles they can have today. Beyond that, arms can be anything including bombs- do you think bombs should be legal to have too? And me, tecoyah, etc. have already addressed the point of criminals still having guns- it is you and misterveritis that think you have the perfect option whereas most of the rest of us realize there is no perfect option and that yours has flaws just as ours do, but that it is all relative in terms of outcome including deaths (which includes accidental deaths and the ease of grabbing an automatic or semi-automatic weapon, etc.).

There is no difference between an ak and any other 7.62mm rifle, that is what I have been trying to explain. It just looks different. I have a browning hunting rifle that fires a more powerful round, I have mags for it that can hold 15 rounds. Its way more accurate than an ak. You just want to ban an ak because it looks different. That isn't an issue with the constitution, its an issue with perception. To ban that gun just means law abiding people can't have them. Criminals will still have them. They are all over the world.

The opening statement of this thread was a fallacy. murder isn't a gun crime, gun crime is illegal trading of guns. Assault with a deadly weapon is like any assault with any deadly weapon. It starts in the mind of the assailant not in inanimate objects.

So disagree with the second amendment all you want, the concept that an ak is more deadly than a mossberg twelve gauge is all in your head. The lack of understanding on your part that all guns are designed to kill is why you can't argue in thus debate. It is clear you know nothing of gun crime

Assault weapon ifs gibberish, it means nothing. Seasons don't commit assault, people do. Objects are just things with no real intent. Intent only comes from human mind.

This discussion is on the basis that the weapon makes assault possible. This is complete reversal of logic adult makes the weapon deadly. The criminal mind isn't thinking about laws they break. So why continue the futility, lets take smart action against murderers and other violent crimes and attempt to understand why they happen undated of creating frivolous laws that are only designed to bring harm to the people who obey laws

I am an expert on criminal behavior having education and experience in the field. Clearly you don't understand.

I will explain it. If someone wants to kill somebody the only watt to stop them is to incapacitate them. In the instance of fury based murder this is enough to stop it. Nothing takes the fight out of somebody like a gunshot or a trip Doreen the stairs aided by gravity and a hefty nudge or 400,000 volts from an electronic deterrent. Pure premeditated murder, this is kill or be killed. The simplest science on the planet, fight or flight. Nothing would have stopped thus killer at sandy hook aside from death, frankly it wad the only thing that stopped him. If he had a browning simi auto 30.30 hunting rifle with a ten round mag he would have killed ten people reloaded and killed ten more, he wanted to kill. In fact the gun stopped him from killing more, the less predictable nature of the ar15 Bush master caused it to jam. He then killed himself. Death was the only stopping this person. Or really the weapon stopped him.

Crime isn't controlled by law it is the opposition to law.
 

myp

Jan 2009
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clax, should individuals be able to own nuclear bombs? I am sure you say no. Well that is the same issue here. Because while criminals cause crimes (obviously- no one denied that), the weapons they have access to MATTERS. You might see a reduction in murder if you eliminate certain deadlier weapons legally because eventually the supply shock will at least partially effect criminal access too (but that is the whole debate- unfortunately you haven't even made it to that point yet). Obviously the weapons don't have minds and aren't doing the crimes themselves, but getting rid of them can help deter a criminals methods too.

The effect of the supply shock is the important point here. It is the point of discussion. It is what you time and time again are ignoring because you don't understand it- you think it is all black and white like you think the 2nd amendment is. Just like you are wrong on the black and whiteness of the 2nd amendment, you are wrong on this. No other way to put it. The world isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Live with it, or deny it, it doesn't matter because this debate will continue nationally and ultimately the Congress, President, and SCOTUS will decide ;)
 
Jan 2012
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Under Article III, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution, the judicial power is vested in the Supreme Court, and such other lower federal courts as the Congress may establish, with jurisdiction over cases and controversies arising under the Constitution and substantial cases where there is diversity of citizenship subject to the limitations of the Eleventh Amendment. To say only wnat matters is written in the consititution only begs the question of its intrepretation. In this, the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of the interpretation of the Constitution, and its decisions are binding as law, until overturned by the court or by constitutional amendment. Indeed, it would not be possible for the court to exercise that grant of jurisdiction over cases arising under the Constitution without interpreting its provisions.

Spin spin and more spin.

Must not be infringed, that means by anybody. Your gods in robes or the chump in the white house.

Infringement is the direct opposite of must not be infringed. You will never ever get me to accept that courts are the arbiter of rights. They are the interpreter, intemperate doesn't mean do the exact opposite of the rule you must follow. If they you userp the people they must be impeached and removed otherwise they are gods, or kings, we are subjects and the constitution is no more than toilet paper.

Nemo, you lost this argument because words don't mean the opposite of what they mean. It is why gun control requires the over throw of the united states government. Must not be infringed doesn't mean can be infringed no matter who the scat for brains joker is pretendingthat the words are ambiguous in meaning.

its over you lost instead of wasting all of this energy on stripping the rights away from people who haven't committed mass murder, and inanimate objects that frighten you for some reason. Put energy instead into thinking about a solution.
 

myp

Jan 2009
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clax, you seem to think everyone is using words opposite what they mean. Have you ever considered that we are all using the words properly and it is YOU with the misunderstanding of what words mean and how they operate? More likely to be 1 person wrong than 1000, right?

To you the SCOTUS is wrong, millions of Americans are wrong, the Constitution is even wrong (when it grants the SCOTUS the power)- only you are right. Who the hell do you think you are?
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
clax, should individuals be able to own nuclear bombs? I am sure you say no. Well that is the same issue here. Because while criminals cause crimes (obviously- no one denied that), the weapons they have access to MATTERS. You might see a reduction in murder if you eliminate certain deadlier weapons legally because eventually the supply shock will at least partially effect criminal access too (but that is the whole debate- unfortunately you haven't even made it to that point yet). Obviously the weapons don't have minds and aren't doing the crimes themselves, but getting rid of them can help deter a criminals methods too.

The effect of the supply shock is the important point here. It is the point of discussion. It is what you time and time again are ignoring because you don't understand it- you think it is all black and white like you think the 2nd amendment is. Just like you are wrong on the black and whiteness of the 2nd amendment, you are wrong on this. No other way to put it. The world isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Live with it, or deny it, it doesn't matter because this debate will continue nationally and ultimately the Congress, President, and

SCOTUS will decide ;)

A .22 isn't a nuclear bomb.

a 7.62 millimeter isn't a nuclear bomb so this comment is absurdly way off point

What personal weapon on the market fires nuclear bombs?

No myp you are wrong must not doesn't mean must. You are dead wrong I may not understand your nonsense but you don't understand English.

And apparently you think rifles shoot nuclear bombs. So I don't think you really have any a thority to speak about such things. Its why you really have no place in this debate
 

myp

Jan 2009
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And apparently you think rifles shoot nuclear bombs. So I don't think you really have any a thority to speak about such things. Its why you really have no place in this debate

Haha, I never said that. You seem incapable of critical analysis or adequate reading comprehension to understand what most people here say. Keep living in your dream world.
 
Jan 2012
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clax, you seem to think everyone is using words opposite what they mean. Have you ever considered that we are all using the words properly and it is YOU with the misunderstanding of what words mean and how they operate? More likely to be 1 person wrong than 1000, right?

Unless you are a wonder land native I don't see how you can come up with must not be infringed can be the same add okay to be infringed.

But you don't think words mean what they mean. You are using your prescription frankly terrible perception to think that the dictionary definition is meaningless.

Must means has to be, not means is negative, infringement means the erosion of something.

No, you have the words wrong but you also think the dictionary definitions are wrong. Invent specialized new false meanings for all the words you want. I speak American version of the kings English, not myp's made up nonsense perversion of English
 

myp

Jan 2009
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Okay clax you are right and everyone is wrong. I guess you know the truth about everything and what you say is the right thing. You can never be wrong. I guess you are GOD.

At least you seem to think so.
 
Jan 2012
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Haha, I never said that. You seem incapable of critical analysis or adequate reading comprehension to understand what most people here say. Keep living in your dream world.

Why are you being this way, a nuclear bomb isn't the same as an ar15.

You are the wonder land native where up means down and must not means must.

You have poor language skills and terrible debate skills, adding words that don't exist to things to suit your own opinion and pretend that it is fact.

I did the Dane thing you diff to me a thousand times. Thinking the government isn't capable of making things more efficient is equal to anarchy, and in your mind my thinking that the government has no business telling me I can't own a rifle because morons think they're scary is the same as every individual citizen owning an atom bomb.

You are in a dream world. bordering on paranoid delusions. I'd seek professional help, you probably shouldn't own a gun, I don't think its safe in your condition
 

myp

Jan 2009
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You are in a dream world. bordering on paranoid delusions. I'd seek professional help, you probably shouldn't own a gun, I don't think its safe in your condition

Wow clax, just wow. I wonder what the world looks like to you, but I am damn glad I don't have to see it that way. I don't have to waste my time explaining things with you and I sure don't have to prove anything to you. Have fun on the site, I'll stick to responding to people who aren't in a dream world lacking logic and filled with outbursts.
 
Jan 2012
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Okay clax you are right and everyone is wrong. I guess you know the truth about everything and what you say is the right thing. You can never be wrong. I guess you are GOD.

At least you seem to think so.

As do you. You are just incapable of debate against somebody that disagrees with you. I don't need to use this pathetic hyperbole you use to dismiss arguments.

Frankly it isn't every body, just you, you lack reasoning skills. You claimed the same thing on me, that I didn't understand science because your opinion has to be fact, your religion is an odd one where I am your deity, (that is good hyperbole).

But you still haven't explained your concept of assault weapons, if it is rational to think a gun makes you a killer than you are irrational I have many guns, never killed anyone.

The law that you can't have a gun that is black and scary is irrational, you have utterly failed to rationally explain it (you really are incapable of rational explanation it seems) you fear which is based only in ignorance is that if I wasn't allowed to have a gun the world would be safer. and you go further down the spiral saying its okay to have a gun, just not this kind because it looks different.

You don't under stand science, you don't understand criminology, you don't understand firearms. I keep a current study of all of these things. It is detrimental to my survival in my profession. Not sure what you study in school, but its clear what you don't study.

You just can't handle the concept that you are not an expert on something. You can't be on everything. I don't claim to be an expert, I really feel like a novous, but you are not even willing to admit you don't know. That is why you lose every debate you ever had with me.
 

myp

Jan 2009
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Well this bit from the OP really rings clear after reading and responding to some of the things in this thread: "Regardless of who you are and what you believe, when you start looking at the sociology of this, you'll find that statistics probably don't matter to you. Tribal affiliation does"

There are some people that clearly can't get past the political ideology. And that is unfortunate. They don't understand interpretation means different ways to look at the same thing- they think 1 is always "right" as if there is no subjectivity in interpretation.

For anyone interested in actually moving past that and beyond the tribal affiliation and willing to discuss the facts, please continue on in this thread- it is a discussion I would like to have and one worth having. Also, be sure to check out my thread of a Pigouvian tax on bullets: http://www.politicalfray.com/showthread.php?t=3529
 
Jan 2012
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Wow clax, just wow. I wonder what the world looks like to you, but I am damn glad I don't have to see it that way. I don't have to waste my time explaining things with you and I sure don't have to prove anything to you. Have fun on the site, I'll stick to responding to people who aren't in a dream world lacking logic and filled with outbursts.

For someone who claims to have nothing to prove you continue to attempt to prove things to me.

I wonder what English sounds like to you, all words mean what they don't mean.

If you have nothing to prove, quit ruining threads bickering with me. Your words don't support your actions, I fell sorry for you.
 
Dec 2012
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Let's consider that in many parts of the world gun ownership is relatively high, perhaps not as high as the US, but still a considerable amount of the population in many countries own firearms, and yet, gun-related homicides do not in all of these countries comprise a large percentage of murders. Examples, Canada and Finland, while both respectfully have lower homicide rates than the US they both also have lower percentages of homicides committed by gun than the US. Canada is under 45%, and Finland is about 14%.

Certainly reducing access to weapons would reduce the capacity for violent spree killers to go on rampages, but most homicide in the US isn't the work of spree killers, and removing access to guns wouldn't necessarily significantly reduce the homicide rate as there are still highly effective instruments of murder available on the market. More importantly the vast majority of homicides in the US are performed with unregistered firearms, so I fail to see how increasing the controls on legal firearms when the problem is largely tied to illegal firearms would solve anything.

I think the real answer is to look at why Americans are so inherently violent. What breeds the culture of violence in America? What are the causes of it? Once we've identified that, we can take logical steps towards countering it, which I think will be much more effective towards reducing our homicide rate than banning guns.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Let's consider that in many parts of the world gun ownership is relatively high, perhaps not as high as the US, but still a considerable amount of the population in many countries own firearms, and yet, gun-related homicides do not in all of these countries comprise a large percentage of murders. Examples, Canada and Finland, while both respectfully have lower homicide rates than the US they both also have lower percentages of homicides committed by gun than the US. Canada is under 45%, and Finland is about 14%.

Certainly reducing access to weapons would reduce the capacity for violent spree killers to go on rampages, but most homicide in the US isn't the work of spree killers, and removing access to guns wouldn't necessarily significantly reduce the homicide rate as there are still highly effective instruments of murder available on the market. More importantly the vast majority of homicides in the US are performed with unregistered firearms, so I fail to see how increasing the controls on legal firearms when the problem is largely tied to illegal firearms would solve anything.

I think the real answer is to look at why Americans are so inherently violent. What breeds the culture of violence in America? What are the causes of it? Once we've identified that, we can take logical steps towards countering it, which I think will be much more effective towards reducing our homicide rate than banning guns.

This is an interesting map that goes along with some of your points: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/data...jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map?CMP=twt_gu

A lot of shootings including that from last week actually use legal weapons- sure some use illegal ones too and that obviously has to be considered. Perhaps regulating bullets is a better option.

I don't buy the idea that Americans are more inherently violent though- I don't think the data supports it (from what I have seen). It is a larger population and with that you have more outliers. Gun crimes are higher than in a lot of other places because there are just more guns.
 
Jan 2012
1,975
5
Texas
Let's consider that in many parts of the world gun ownership is relatively high, perhaps not as high as the US, but still a considerable amount of the population in many countries own firearms, and yet, gun-related homicides do not in all of these countries comprise a large percentage of murders. Examples, Canada and Finland, while both respectfully have lower homicide rates than the US they both also have lower percentages of homicides committed by gun than the US. Canada is under 45%, and Finland is about 14%.

The homicide rate in Switzerland is lower than the USA but the per capita gun ownership is higher. Places where guns are not allowed by legal owners typically have higher crime rates within the united states.

This really is indicative not of guns equal more violence but the united states has a violet culture. a person can own a thousand guns and never even point it at somebody. It really isn't the access to fire arms. The only reason I can think of why our country has such a violent culture is our lack of community. It seems that every thing that occurs in our nation is used to forward some ideology. Being free thinkers means allowing others to think freely also.
Certainly reducing access to weapons would reduce the capacity for violent spree killers to go on rampages, but most homicide in the US isn't the work of spree killers, and removing access to guns wouldn't necessarily significantly reduce the homicide rate as there are still highly effective instruments of murder available on the market. More importantly the vast majority of homicides in the US are performed with unregistered firearms, so I fail to see how increasing the controls on legal firearms when the problem is largely tied to illegal firearms would solve anything.
I am not aware of any national registry, individual states may have them but mine does not.

I personally am 100% for the control of illegal fire arms, they are often the ones used in violent crime. The control of these weapons being that the are aquired, traded and used outside the law making laws against non violent otherwise law abiding citizens would really have little effect. There are already laws against illegally obtaining weapons, they don't work against criminals. I am not advocating removal of these such laws, just that law only really keeps honest people honest. The law to take guns away only punishes the honest people, liberty is sometimes sacrificed for safety and I have to agree that giving up one for the other means you deserve nether.
I think the real answer is to look at why Americans are so inherently violent. What breeds the culture of violence in America? What are the causes of it? Once we've identified that, we can take logical steps towards countering it, which I think will be much more effective towards reducing our homicide rate than banning guns.
This I absolutely agree with. We are a violent culture, I am not sure why, I have suspicions, I will state shortly. This is a deeply complex problem and requires focus, and understanding of the people in the united states.

The main reason (imo) we have such a violent culture is the high percentage of people incarcerated in our country. We have a justice system that is only meant to punish people who violate the rules of our nation. I once worked in a "correctional facility" I learned that the term correctional facility was just pretty language, there is absolutely no correction, it is punishment. Once you are in the system you are institutionalized for life. You can't get work, you can't get housing you can't function legally in our world, so there us no second chance, you are doomed by your first felony.

Law enforcement (speaking as a law enforcement professional my self) is broken and currupt. But or notion of law enforcement is really to blame. My opinion on this is not very popular in my profession, but I think that law enforcement officers should be a form of community support, know the residents our other protectorates in your patrol, reach out to communities in need and understand that the people that break the law are people all the same. To many videos loo see of my colleges losing their wits and acting violently toward criminals, some times it isn't necessary.

Another issue I think is a factor in our society is our thoughts on mental health. It really doesn't get any recognition unless it is a sever mental health issue. Just like physical health is a daily thing, so is mental health. And also just like physical health mental health is different for the individual.
I am just guessing here that most Americans automatically thought of psychologists and therapy. But just like therapy for bad physical health occurs long after the problem was caused same with mental health. It is necessary to do things daily to insure mental health and stability. Just like nutritious food supports physical health nutritious mental food supports mental health.
Nobody really ever thinks of their mental health until it is tested.
mentally nutritious things are discipline, structure, and attitude. Three things desperately lacking in our nation.

Lastly love, not just the hug and kiss business but the genuine care for our fellow men and women, children too. I am falling about philanthropy, which means love of people. This is really the main idea that tends to get shuffled out of religion. I really think that this is the purpose for religion, bit that is another topic. You don't have to be religious to love people. You do have to be strong, because when somebody needs you to do very hard things that do hurt but not compared to the consequences of not doing it, like say putting a child up for adoption, or the mental anguish that people suffer breaking addiction it breaks your heart but it is the hard part of love, the person that is the object of your love may not love you back, in fact they may hate you. but your love will never change.

I could go on and on, and I am sure there are thousands of reasons all valid that I never thought of. But hopefully this discussion can move that way.
 
Jan 2012
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This is an interesting map that goes along with some of your points: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/data...jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map?CMP=twt_gu

A lot of shootings including that from last week actually use legal weapons- sure some use illegal ones too and that obviously has to be considered. Perhaps regulating bullets is a better option.

I don't buy the idea that Americans are more inherently violent though- I don't think the data supports it (from what I have seen). It is a larger population and with that you have more outliers. Gun crimes are higher than in a lot of other places because there are just more guns.

The gun used to kill the children was not legally obtained. Connecticut has a ban on "assault weapons" the gun used by the killer had to either not be considered an "assault weapon" or was purchased illegally. Being that the ban stated that the criteria of the assault weapon can not be purchased after 1993 there is no way this fire arm was either an assault weapon or purchased legally.

So it is either poor enforcement of the law, poor wording in the law, our the fire arm is not am assault weapon. Being that post 1993 in Connecticut was in this particular killers neonate days it isn't possible that he obtain the gun legally if it is indeed am assault weapon

They were taken from his mother illegally to be used in an illegal act. So no, the guns were not obtained legally. Federal law states you have to be 21 to possess a pistol, so that fire arm wasn't legally obtained.

So there was no assault weapon (what ever that means) involved, just a rifle and a stolen pistol.

Your facts are not facts but then again they never are
 
May 2009
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Does it mean what it says? Forty years ago, I posed that question vis-a-vis the canons of construction to Professor Laurence Tribe, the foremost exponent on constitutional law, who told me that the Constitution doesn't mean what it says. I thought that he was jesting at the time; but after the Supreme Court decision in Bush v. Gore, I have come to think that he meant what he said. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the Constitution says what the Supreme Court says it says. That said, it is certainly possible - humans being fallible - for the Supreme Court to err in its judgment; but neither you nor I have the last word. As Mr. Justice Jackson put it: "We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." Associate Justice Robert H. Jackson, Concurring Opinion in Brown v. Allen, 344 U.S. 443 (1953).
 
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