New York Times Goes With Unsupported Opinion

Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
Did someone say the New York Times was a newspaper of high standing ? Well ever since their discredited quote during the oil shortage back in 1979, I've withheld that opinion of them. Looks like the times have not been a-changing for the Times, since they are still printing less than frank and/or truthful stuff.

Their latest flub is an article by Elisabeth Rosenthal which claims, as the title of her article put it, “More Guns = More Killing. And on what did Ms. Rosenthal base this bold assertion ? On anecdotal observations bald assertions of hers with absolutely no independent fact-checking by the "high-standing" Times.

This very loose proclamation in Rosenthal’s column proclaimed that armed guards do not reduce crime because: “I recently visited some Latin American countries … where guards with guns grace every office lobby, storefront, ATM, restaurant and gas station. It has not made those countries safer or saner.”

As Ann Coulter put it >> "
"So there you have it: The cock crowed, then the sun came up. Therefore, the cock’s crowing caused the sun to come up. Rosenthal went to Harvard Medical School.
Here’s a tip: High-crime areas are often bristling with bulletproof glass, heavy-duty locks, gated windows and armed guards. The bulletproof glass doesn’t cause the crime; it’s a response to crime. On Rosenthal’s logic, hospitals kill people because more people die in hospitals than outside of them."

A comparison of gun crime after 1997 in Australia (guns banned) and New Zealand (heavily armed) shows no difference in gun crime. Why didn't the New York Times report that ? Or the only real academic, peer-reviewed, long-term study of the effect of various public policies on public, multiple shootings in all 50 states over a 20-year period performed by renowned economists at the University of Chicago and Yale, William Landes and John Lott. It concluded that the only policy to reduce the incidence of, and casualties from, mass shootings are concealed-carry laws.
 
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myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Coulter called out a conclusion deemed as causal that she thought was based on correlation? Ironic. Alas, upon reading the article it turns out that the title was sensationalist probably just to get more people talking about it (as we are here) and that that was not actually a definite causal conclusion she or the researchers referenced came to.
 
Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
I hope you understand what an "Opinion Piece" means.

However, I would like to point out an issue I have with your thread concerning the Gun Ban in Australia.

While it may be true as far as a difference between Australia an New Zealand, the comparison makes no sense in the context of your comments and opinion, as it compares an Apple to an Orange....this may be a more apt comparison:

"
A study co-authored by Simon Chapman argued that reduction in firearm numbers had prevented mass shootings because in the 18 years prior to the Port Arthur massacre there were 13 mass shootings and in the decade since 1996 there have been none.[39]
A 2008 study on the effects of the firearm buybacks by Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi of Melbourne University's Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research studied the data and concluded, "Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates."[40]
In early 2009 a paper from research at the Australian Institute of Suicide Prevention at Griffith University concluded:
The implemented restrictions may not be responsible for the observed reductions in firearms suicide. Data suggest that a change in social and cultural attitudes could have contributed to the shift in method preference.[41]
A 2010 study found that the gun buyback scheme cut firearm suicides 74%, thus saving 200 lives a year. The study,[42] by Christine Neill and Andrew Leigh (later elected as an Australian Labor Party MP), also found that states such as Tasmania, which withdrew guns quickly, had a bigger decline in firearm suicides than states such as New South Wales, which withdrew more slowly. The authors found no evidence of substitution of method of suicide in any state.[43]
Statements by organizations

The American National Rifle Association claimed in 2000 that violent crimes had increased in Australia since the introduction of new laws, based on highly unrepresentative statistics from newspaper articles[citation needed]. The federal Attorney General Daryl Williams accused the NRA of falsifying government statistics and urged the NRA to "remove any reference to Australia" from its website.[44]
CLASS (The Coalition of Law Abiding Sporting Shooters) in 2003 stated that no benefit-cost analysis of the buyback had been carried out and that scientific debate was politicised and ignored benefits of shooting and costs forced on legitimate owners.[45] The Attorney General's Department rejected a 2011 Freedom of Information request for benefit-cost analysis or analysis of externalised costs because "no such documents exist".[citation needed]
The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia states that there is no evidence that gun control restrictions in 1987, 1996 and 2002 had any impact on the already established trends.[46][47]
Responding to Neill and Leigh, The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia replied [48] that suicide by firearm has been decreasing steadily since the mid-1980s, but suicide by other methods such as hanging has not followed the same trend; that important assumptions of the work were not mentioned in media reports; that 93% of people replaced their seized firearms with at least one, if not more, to replace their loss; and recommended the work of Lee and Suardi, who reviewed almost 90 years of ABS data when making their conclusions, while Leigh and Neill chose to analyse only two five-year periods on either side of the 1996 buy-back."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia
 
Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
Coulter called out a conclusion deemed as causal that she thought was based on correlation? Ironic. Alas, upon reading the article it turns out that the title was sensationalist probably just to get more people talking about it (as we are here) and that that was not actually a definite causal conclusion she or the researchers referenced came to.

Absolutely correct (that is if I'm understanding you right)
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Absolutely correct (that is if I'm understanding you right)

If you agree, then what is the point of your quasi-rant? That the NY Times is evil because it allowed a catchy title? Hardly the first respectable publication to do that (especially for an Op-ed).
 
Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
I hope you understand what an "Opinion Piece" means.

However, I would like to point out an issue I have with your thread concerning the Gun Ban in Australia.

While it may be true as far as a difference between Australia an New Zealand, the comparison makes no sense in the context of your comments and opinion, as it compares an Apple to an Orange....this may be a more apt comparison:

"
A study co-authored by Simon Chapman argued that reduction in firearm numbers had prevented mass shootings because in the 18 years prior to the Port Arthur massacre there were 13 mass shootings and in the decade since 1996 there have been none.[39]
A 2008 study on the effects of the firearm buybacks by Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi of Melbourne University's Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research studied the data and concluded, "Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates."[40]
In early 2009 a paper from research at the Australian Institute of Suicide Prevention at Griffith University concluded:
The implemented restrictions may not be responsible for the observed reductions in firearms suicide. Data suggest that a change in social and cultural attitudes could have contributed to the shift in method preference.[41]
A 2010 study found that the gun buyback scheme cut firearm suicides 74%, thus saving 200 lives a year. The study,[42] by Christine Neill and Andrew Leigh (later elected as an Australian Labor Party MP), also found that states such as Tasmania, which withdrew guns quickly, had a bigger decline in firearm suicides than states such as New South Wales, which withdrew more slowly. The authors found no evidence of substitution of method of suicide in any state.[43]
Statements by organizations

The American National Rifle Association claimed in 2000 that violent crimes had increased in Australia since the introduction of new laws, based on highly unrepresentative statistics from newspaper articles[citation needed]. The federal Attorney General Daryl Williams accused the NRA of falsifying government statistics and urged the NRA to "remove any reference to Australia" from its website.[44]
CLASS (The Coalition of Law Abiding Sporting Shooters) in 2003 stated that no benefit-cost analysis of the buyback had been carried out and that scientific debate was politicised and ignored benefits of shooting and costs forced on legitimate owners.[45] The Attorney General's Department rejected a 2011 Freedom of Information request for benefit-cost analysis or analysis of externalised costs because "no such documents exist".[citation needed]
The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia states that there is no evidence that gun control restrictions in 1987, 1996 and 2002 had any impact on the already established trends.[46][47]
Responding to Neill and Leigh, The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia replied [48] that suicide by firearm has been decreasing steadily since the mid-1980s, but suicide by other methods such as hanging has not followed the same trend; that important assumptions of the work were not mentioned in media reports; that 93% of people replaced their seized firearms with at least one, if not more, to replace their loss; and recommended the work of Lee and Suardi, who reviewed almost 90 years of ABS data when making their conclusions, while Leigh and Neill chose to analyse only two five-year periods on either side of the 1996 buy-back."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

As much as I hate to invoke the invalidation card, I've just seen too much ultra-liberal bias in wikipedia to take tham 100% seriously. The information you presented is good, but there may be other good information as well that's not being reported such as the major drop in violent crime in the US (in general) contemporary with the enactment of concealed carry laws.
For now, I'm comfortable with the example drawn by Ann Coulter of New Zealand and Australia, since Australia went gun control.

In general, my "Opinion Piece" is >> if you disarm law-abiding citizens, criminals will still get their guns, and all you'll do is make it easier for the criminals, while placing the law-abiding people in jeopardy.
 
Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
As much as I hate to invoke the invalidation card, I've just seen too much ultra-liberal bias in wikipedia to take tham 100% seriously. The information you presented is good, but there may be other good information as well that's not being reported such as the major drop in violent crime in the US (in general) contemporary with the enactment of concealed carry laws.
For now, I'm comfortable with the example drawn by Ann Coulter of New Zealand and Australia, since Australia went gun control.

In general, my "Opinion Piece" is >> if you disarm law-abiding citizens, criminals will still get their guns, and all you'll do is make it easier for the criminals, while placing the law-abiding people in jeopardy.

Understood...sources are always up for critique, based on bias in the source, or in the reader. I have my own bias toward Coulter based on opinion garnered from her own words.

In the information I provided you may note Australia was not disarmed, though they did remove the weapons used in mass shootings....which stopped happening.
 
Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
Understood...sources are always up for critique, based on bias in the source, or in the reader. I have my own bias toward Coulter based on opinion garnered from her own words.

In the information I provided you may note Australia was not disarmed, though they did remove the weapons used in mass shootings....which stopped happening.

Some weapons SHOULD be banned. Citizens shouldn't be allowed to own tanks or F-22 Raptors. (exagerrating a bit for demonstrative purposes)
 
Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
Some weapons SHOULD be banned. Citizens shouldn't be allowed to own tanks or F-22 Raptors. (exagerrating a bit for demonstrative purposes)


What is it then, that (in your opinion), places a tank, Raptor, missile, or whatever into the "Okay to be banned" list?
 
Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
If you agree, then what is the point of your quasi-rant? That the NY Times is evil because it allowed a catchy title? Hardly the first respectable publication to do that (especially for an Op-ed).

You agreed with me didn't you ? I often have trouble understanding you. You don't talk as clearly as most people do ?
 
Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
What is it then, that (in your opinion), places a tank, Raptor, missile, or whatever into the "Okay to be banned" list?

They are beyond what is reasonably needed for protection of one's own life, home and family. That should be the limit for citizens, IMO.
 
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Oct 2012
4,429
1,084
Louisville, Ky
Okay....makes sense. I guess I just do not find it reasonable to need protection from an enraged Mob, an assault force, or anything requiring me to use 30 bullets in a few seconds.
 
Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
Okay....makes sense. I guess I just do not find it reasonable to need protection from an enraged Mob, an assault force, or anything requiring me to use 30 bullets in a few seconds.

Unless you piss off a biker gang or something like that (could happen)
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
If you agree, then what is the point of your quasi-rant? That the NY Times is evil because it allowed a catchy title? Hardly the first respectable publication to do that (especially for an Op-ed).

The New York Times? :giggle: It's a liberal rag, propaganda not news.
 
Jan 2013
29
0
Unless you piss off a biker gang or something like that (could happen)
In which case...I'd consider that the GANG likely got there own SMG'd,assault rifles, oversize clips etc. Trouble with a Biker gang? Sounds like a)you made a crappy batch of meth b) they intend to part out your Harley c) The BIKERS...are comin' for your guns :eek: d) all the above

Best answer......leave town,change your name
 
Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
In which case...I'd consider that the GANG likely got there own SMG'd,assault rifles, oversize clips etc. Trouble with a Biker gang? Sounds like a)you made a crappy batch of meth b) they intend to part out your Harley c) The BIKERS...are comin' for your guns :eek: d) all the above

Best answer......leave town,change your name

I was speaking hypothetically. I don't know any biker gangs, or any other kind of gangs.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
The New York Times? :giggle: It's a liberal rag, propaganda not news.

Every news source, paper, magazine, etc. has its ups and its downs including the premier ones like the NYTimes. Some of their writers are undoubtedly good thinkers- people like Nate Silver for example. Let's not generalize and make ourselves look silly (unless you want to do that :p)
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
Every news source, paper, magazine, etc. has its ups and its downs including the premier ones like the NYTimes. Some of their writers are undoubtedly good thinkers- people like Nate Silver for example. Let's not generalize and make ourselves look silly (unless you want to do that :p)

I've read the NYT and find it to be the MSN of print. The fact that it's liberal isn't my issue, the fact that it's a bunch of liberal propaganda is. The WSJ is just as bad but at least they only BS everyone on economic issues.
 
Dec 2012
677
13
Florida
I've read the NYT and find it to be the MSN of print. The fact that it's liberal isn't my issue, the fact that it's a bunch of liberal propaganda is. The WSJ is just as bad but at least they only BS everyone on economic issues.

Being a registered Independent, I find it normal to find both things I agree with and disagree with in the Times. The OP is one of the examples of a disagreement. There's plenty of others.

There are, however, plenty of examples of stuff I agree with in the Times too, as well as its cousin newspaper the Tampa Bay Times. I usually agree with liberals on economic opinions like those in the Times. Also, there's a lot of non-political stuff in the TImes that I agree with too. The Times is not all politics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/12/s...et-a-backup-the-car.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/12/h...evels-but-may-be-peaking.html?ref=todayspaper
 
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