For or Against Capital Punishment?

[ArghMonkey]

Maybe not good for you, many for me. One I like is if you kill them they damn sure will never do it again. If someone is coming in my house in the middle of the night I will personally give them the death penalty. That way my family will be safe and I will not spend years in court fighting the "do gooders". They can be a "doormat" if they want, but do expect me to put up with it.

Nobody is talking about defending yourself here.

Your ethics allow a system of just to murder someone for something they did and honestly, I dont think most peoples ethics are developed much beyond base emotions and instinct.

If someone cant see an inherent contradiction and ethical problem with murdering someone for a crime its a sign that the education system is really pathetic, sorry.

 

[DodgeFB]

Nobody is talking about defending yourself here.

Your ethics allow a system of just to murder someone for something they did and honestly, I dont think most peoples ethics are developed much beyond base emotions and instinct.

If someone cant see an inherent contradiction and ethical problem with murdering someone for a crime its a sign that the education system is really pathetic, sorry.

You may not believe this, but everything is not education driven. Some things are just right or wrong. And if some low life is going around doing awful things they should die. If it takes the state so be it. I had a family friend at 76 years old tied up in his own kitchen made to watch his 78 year old wife of 50 years raped in front of him. Two guys fresh out of prison raped that poor woman in every way. And made that old man watch. In my mind and heart the state owed it to them to bury those bastards. That was when I really started believing in the death penalty.An "education" I have never forgotten.

 

[Dirk]

The problem with "disable, rather than kill them" is they will either come back after you

I shouldn't think so. Surely one bullet in the leg is enough.

If not, oi'll 'ave 'is 'and!

or take you to court and take everything you have.

Hopefully, if there were a fair court system, the self-defence line should be sufficient.

I just don't think some people deserve to live when they kill in a heartbeat.

I don't think it'd be right for me to make the judgement to kill them. Obviously, this is only applicable when the assailant has the intention of murdering you, which may well not be the case. In most situations, it is difficult to know a person's mind, even in the best of circumstances.

I see killing as a last resort. I'd prefer to minimise the number of deaths in a situation. If the best way to save the most lives - be it your family or total strangers, they're all human lives - is to kill, then so be it. But i would argue that such a situation is very rare.

 

[DodgeFB]

I shouldn't think so. Surely one bullet in the leg is enough.

If not, oi'll 'ave 'is 'and!



Hopefully, if there were a fair court system, the self-defence line should be sufficient.



I don't think it'd be right for me to make the judgement to kill them. Obviously, this is only applicable when the assailant has the intention of murdering you, which may well not be the case. In most situations, it is difficult to know a person's mind, even in the best of circumstances.

I see killing as a last resort. I'd prefer to minimise the number of deaths in a situation. If the best way to save the most lives - be it your family or total strangers, they're all human lives - is to kill, then so be it. But i would argue that such a situation is very rare.

I feel like in a "home invasion" I know that person's intention is to harm me or my family. When they kick in someones door knowing someone is home they are taking their own life in their hands. They better hope it is your house and not mine.


As for the courts,in rare cases I have seem them make the home owner pay money to the crook. And can you really trust the courts to do the right thing? They put bad guys in jail until some "bean counter" says it cost too much to hold them. Then some "do gooder" parole board will kiss them on the cheek, give them a little money and a bus ticket right back where they came from.

 

[Delta]

If someone cant see an inherent contradiction and ethical problem with murdering someone for a crime its a sign that the education system is really pathetic, sorry.

Ethics and morals are highly subjective so I don't see where education come in... unless you believe we should just accept everything we're told and follow it mindlessly.

As for intelligence, I'm sure there are many people much smarter than you and I who are both for and against the death penalty.

There is no contradiction. Our system relies on punishing those who commit crime. The death penalty is simply another form of punishment. The way you're talking, I could argue that we just shouldn't punish them at all. Someone did something wrong? Oh, it would be unethical to punish them and do something wrong to them.

 

[ArghMonkey]

You may not believe this, but everything is not education driven. Some things are just right or wrong.

Says you, right and wrong are subjective, thats why we debate the merits of ideas and weight the positives and negatives, because ur "gut instinct" isent clear thinking.

Its the same reason why we have the scientific method, because humans going off their gut end up causing wars and hardship.

Anyway I am getting away from the point, what u consider "common sense" would be horrible to someone else, u want to believe ur the one that holds the right answers, all im saying is we should all understand that we need methodical, fact based, not emotion based, discussions about these things.

Education comes into it because FACTS are important in making the "right" choices and the facts will contradict a lot of what you and many other people think.

And if some low life is going around doing awful things they should die. If it takes the state so be it. I had a family friend at 76 years old tied up in his own kitchen made to watch his 78 year old wife of 50 years raped in front of him. Two guys fresh out of prison raped that poor woman in every way. And made that old man watch. In my mind and heart the state owed it to them to bury those bastards. That was when I really started believing in the death penalty.An "education" I have never forgotten.

Thats horrible, disgusting and id say why stop at just murdering them? why not torture them? why not slowly saw them in half? would that reverse the damage they caused? would that make things ok again?

Your talking about dragging urself to their level, we should have more respect for ourselves then to allow our angry and desire for blood to make us into monsters.

If someone did that to a member of my family dont u think id want to take a baseball bat to them? cause that would be my gut reaction, but then id be no better, maybe even worse (since I know better), then the criminal, I would be WRONG!, so two or three peoples lives are ruined, nothing is solved and justice isent done.

We need to use our heads more and not our emotions so much.

 

[ArghMonkey]

Ethics and morals are highly subjective so I don't see where education come in... unless you believe we should just accept everything we're told and follow it mindlessly.

Do you think a philosophy class in school teaches only answers? *L*

Do you think an ethics class teaches only answers?

People can educate themselves, definitely, but otherwise we need teachers to expose us to new ways of thinking.

An education does exactly that.

Replace education with learning and you might get the gist.

As for intelligence, I'm sure there are many people much smarter than you and I who are both for and against the death penalty.

No, not really, murdering someone because they did something wrong went out with the dark ages, it doesnt make sense, never did and it doesnt make life easier or better for anyone, it certainly doesnt provide justice and its a sign that some countries still arent evolved enough.

There is no contradiction. Our system relies on punishing those who commit crime. The death penalty is simply another form of punishment. The way you're talking, I could argue that we just shouldn't punish them at all. Someone did something wrong? Oh, it would be unethical to punish them and do something wrong to them.

The justice system is also about rehabilitation, punishing people doesnt stop crime and in a strictly philosophical sense ur right, punishing people for being human is wrong, but we arent developed enough as a species to help ourselves, so removing people from broader society is the best way we have of containing chaotic free radicals.

Now murdering someone, as a species, we realize is wrong, even in the case of defense we try to do everything to protect ourselves next to killing others. So the idea that any justice is done by killing a criminal is asinine, its nonsensical, it does not make sense.

Just tell me your ok with murder then please and lets stop going in circles, tell me your just another animal, incapable of dealing with your blood lust and justice be damned if someone does something bad enough you want their blood, tell me that and I can say "ok then, you arent interested in bettering the human race at all" and we can leave it at that.

A few here want to justify your beliefs but you cant win, just accept that your ok with murder and/or havent really thought the subject through.

 

[DodgeFB]

Says you, right and wrong are subjective, thats why we debate the merits of ideas and weight the positives and negatives, because ur "gut instinct" isent clear thinking.

Its the same reason why we have the scientific method, because humans going off their gut end up causing wars and hardship.

Anyway I am getting away from the point, what u consider "common sense" would be horrible to someone else, u want to believe ur the one that holds the right answers, all im saying is we should all understand that we need methodical, fact based, not emotion based, discussions about these things.

Education comes into it because FACTS are important in making the "right" choices and the facts will contradict a lot of what you and many other people think.



Thats horrible, disgusting and id say why stop at just murdering them? why not torture them? why not slowly saw them in half? would that reverse the damage they caused? would that make things ok again?

Your talking about dragging urself to their level, we should have more respect for ourselves then to allow our angry and desire for blood to make us into monsters.

If someone did that to a member of my family dont u think id want to take a baseball bat to them? cause that would be my gut reaction, but then id be no better, maybe even worse (since I know better), then the criminal, I would be WRONG!, so two or three peoples lives are ruined, nothing is solved and justice isent done.

We need to use our heads more and not our emotions so much.

At the risk of upsetting you delicate feelings I will try to give you an answer to some of your questions.

Since I am a person not a machine I do not require programming. Since education is done by people it is not always correct. Teachers, and professors have their own faults and agendas. They are no more perfect than you or I.

As far as torturing them. I really don't care either way. If they can dish it out give it back in kind. I am no "monster", I am a son, a father and husband. But you better believe if I meet the monster they will think I am a monster. And yes I have meet the monster in my own life. I have been shot and I have shot. I will be butt-wipe to no man. To cower to a monster and not deal with them would be dragging me down.

"We need to use our heads more and not our emotions so much". Why would I ever want to become some emotionless glob of flesh passing through this world. Yes emotions hurt. I still feel the pain of my oldest daughters death. But I have had to deal with it. That is just my opinion, not asking anyone to agree.

 

[ArghMonkey]

At the risk of upsetting you delicate feelings I will try to give you an answer to some of your questions.

Since I am a person not a machine I do not require programming. Since education is done by people it is not always correct. Teachers, and professors have their own faults and agendas. They are no more perfect than you or I.

If you think praying is going to heal you and a doctor tells you they have a cure and gives you pills, if you think you both are as valid then you will end up dead.

You mentioned that there are facts and lies and right and wrong in the world, well some people have more facts then others.

You are a human and you DO require programming, just like you learned how a car works you have to LEARN things, that comes from either commited studying on your part (through information given by other people) or ideally, from an expert/teacher.

Pretending that you or I are just as smart and stupid as anyone else is silly and its what your line of thinking ends at here.

The fact is you do need training/education/to learn and thats part of life, learning things will always be filtered through the experience of being human but so what? everything we do is filtered through the experience of being human.

As far as torturing them. I really don't care either way.

If you really "dont care" then you also fit the description of a sociopath, now I doubt that you actually dont care at all, I think in your life its easy for you to ignore the subject and you probably havent given it a lot of thought.

If they can dish it out give it back in kind. I am no "monster", I am a son, a father and husband.

I never said you were a monster but I do have to point out that every person that has done monsterous things tends to be HUMAN and tends to have parents and perhaps siblings and perhaps be a father/mother, not sure what other monsters you think anyone can reference? bears maybe?

But you better believe if I meet the monster they will think I am a monster.

So your not a monster but you are capable of being a monster, one more step and you might be in someone elses shoes?

And yes I have meet the monster in my own life. I have been shot and I have shot. I will be butt-wipe to no man. To cower to a monster and not deal with them would be dragging me down.

Pride and defense etc has nothing to do with torture or killing anyone, if you kill someone as a last resort to save yourself then ur justified, if you kill someone to save face then your a cold blooded murderer, im sure you would agree with that?

"We need to use our heads more and not our emotions so much". Why would I ever want to become some emotionless glob of flesh passing through this world. Yes emotions hurt. I still feel the pain of my oldest daughters death. But I have had to deal with it. That is just my opinion, not asking anyone to agree.

I never said emotionless, we are human, the good, the bad and the ugly, but sometimes our guts have shit for brains (movie reference that works too well in this post).

Noone is talking about not feeling sad or angry etc but we need to use our heads more, having the state kill someone isent justice, theres no two ways about it, like I said, we can either say "so their blood is on my hands, im ok with that, I dont care if they die" or we have to be BETTER, your ok with it, thats an answer, not very evolved in my opinion but at least thats a response, I cant fault you for being honest but I can for being short sighted.

 

[DodgeFB]

"If you think praying is going to heal you and a doctor tells you they have a cure and gives you pills, if you think you both are as valid then you will end up dead."

Been there and done that. I was told I had stage 4 cancer and had 6months to live without chemo. or 12 months to live with. I took a few and stopped. The doctors told me it was suicide. That also was in Oct.1984.

"sociopath"?

No I am no sociopath,

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

I just will not be run over by a sociopath if I can stop it. And I will not kiss them on the cheek and smile when they try. I learned a lot in that year of being told by all these "educated" people that I was at deaths door. Everyone should try living a while thinking they are as good as dead.

This is going nowhere you will never change me and I don't even want to change you. If living your way works for you I am glad. Living the way I do has worked for me about 60 years. I don't change a lot even when I want to. And on this subject I don't want to change.

Have a good day.

 

[ArghMonkey]

"If you think praying is going to heal you and a doctor tells you they have a cure and gives you pills, if you think you both are as valid then you will end up dead."

Been there and done that. I was told I had stage 4 cancer and had 6months to live without chemo. or 12 months to live with. I took a few and stopped. The doctors told me it was suicide. That also was in Oct.1984.

So you advocate that people dont listen to their doctors and pray for a cure?

You do know what your saying here right?

So your choice, to you, shows that doctors dont know anything and that your as smart as any doctor?

"sociopath"?

No I am no sociopath,

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

I never called u one, infact I said I figured you werent and that u just havent thought about the subject much.

However, if you dont care that someone is tortured, then that means you cant empathise, which also means you land squarely in the "sociopathic" category.

I just will not be run over by a sociopath if I can stop it. And I will not kiss them on the cheek and smile when they try.

I dont know where your getting this, justice doesnt mean rewarding someone for bad actions but it also doesnt mean killing someone for murder, bringing yourself to their level still ends up with you being as bad as the criminal.

I learned a lot in that year of being told by all these "educated" people that I was at deaths door. Everyone should try living a while thinking they are as good as dead.

I would bet thats liberating, shame you seem to think that smart people, know nothing *L*

This is going nowhere you will never change me and I don't even want to change you. If living your way works for you I am glad. Living the way I do has worked for me about 60 years. I don't change a lot even when I want to. And on this subject I don't want to change.

Have a good day.

Im always looking to better myself, you avoid the challenge then? Your lose and you wont ever understand why.

 

[DodgeFB]

So you advocate that people dont listen to their doctors and pray for a cure?

You do know what your saying here right?

So your choice, to you, shows that doctors dont know anything and that your as smart as any doctor?



I never called u one, infact I said I figured you werent and that u just havent thought about the subject much.

However, if you dont care that someone is tortured, then that means you cant empathise, which also means you land squarely in the "sociopathic" category.



I dont know where your getting this, justice doesnt mean rewarding someone for bad actions but it also doesnt mean killing someone for murder, bringing yourself to their level still ends up with you being as bad as the criminal.



I would bet thats liberating, shame you seem to think that smart people, know nothing *L*



Im always looking to better myself, you avoid the challenge then? Your lose and you wont ever understand why.

The only thing I don't get is where did I say anything about praying for a cure?

You have not understood anything I said. Are you in a pot cloud or just have a bone to pick with me? I may have already faced more challenges than you ever will. I buried my own child that I still love dearly and miss everyday. And facing my own death was much easier than that.

I really don't care that you don't like the US or that you hate conservatives. And you can lean left till you fall over for all I care. But I will never understand why you have such a chip on your shoulder. Just because I feel different than you does not make me stupid, mean, or wrong.

 

[Dirk]

I really don't care that you don't like the US or that you hate conservatives. And you can lean left till you fall over for all I care. But I will never understand why you have such a chip on your shoulder. Just because I feel different than you does not make me stupid, mean, or wrong.

Some people are convinced that everyone that disagrees with them is wrong and worthy only of ridicule.

 

[ArghMonkey]

The only thing I don't get is where did I say anything about praying for a cure?

You have not understood anything I said. Are you in a pot cloud or just have a bone to pick with me? I may have already faced more challenges than you ever will. I buried my own child that I still love dearly and miss everyday. And facing my own death was much easier than that.

I really don't care that you don't like the US or that you hate conservatives. And you can lean left till you fall over for all I care. But I will never understand why you have such a chip on your shoulder. Just because I feel different than you does not make me stupid, mean, or wrong.

I never said any of those things, im not arguing that you haven't lived life and I really feel that an answer like this is a cop-out to any real argument we might have had that would have been interesting.

You dont know what to respond with so you call urself a victim and me the perpetrator, I just wanted straight answers and u gave it to me, you dont care what happens to other people, even if they get tortured, I will assume the caveat that only people you deem bad are deserving of torture etc.

Anyway, thanks for giving me your answer earlier, I know clearly where you stand.

 

[Delta]

The justice system is also about rehabilitation, punishing people doesnt stop crime...

You honestly think that the threat of punishment doesn't stop crime? Maybe in a perfect world... whatever world you think we're rising to. But the fact remains, humans are animals - and we always will be.

Just tell me your ok with murder then please and lets stop going in circles, tell me your just another animal, incapable of dealing with your blood lust and justice be damned if someone does something bad enough you want their blood, tell me that and I can say "ok then, you arent interested in bettering the human race at all" and we can leave it at that.

A few here want to justify your beliefs but you cant win, just accept that your ok with murder and/or havent really thought the subject through.

Well as far as the legal definition of murder goes, capital punishment isn't murder. For the sake of ending this, lets call it murder... and I'll admit that I'm alright with it. I am just another animal, and you are too. The human race is never going to "better" itself. We're just as bad off now as we were in the dark ages. At least I can admit that, and I'm fine with it.

Since you brought it up though, just out of curiosity - what in your life do you do that betters the human race?

 

[ArghMonkey]

and I'm fine with it.

Thats really all you need to say, your in the camp that says killing people is a good response to some crimes, ok, I know where you stand too.

Since you brought it up though, just out of curiosity - what in your life do you do that betters the human race?

I brought up the concept of being better, as an individual and as a species, I didn't say im a role model, whatever I could say would seem like nothing compared to some people but I have no choice but to try to make the world better.

In a small way talking here makes the world better, we can share ideas, and educate each other.

 

[David]

I say we should replace execution with enslavement. That way if it turns out we got the wrong person, we simply pay them for their labor and damages and set them loose. We also get use out of them as opposed to simply adding another corpse to the list of bodies needing to be disposed of.

I think the lose of freedom will be the better deterrent then death.

 

[Dirk]

I say we should replace execution with enslavement. That way if it turns out we got the wrong person, we simply pay them for their labor and damages and set them loose. We also get use out of them as opposed to simply adding another corpse to the list of bodies needing to be disposed of.

I think the lose of freedom will be the better deterrent then death.

Prison labour undercuts the labour market. It's already a problem now.

 

[David]

Prison labour undercuts the labour market. It's already a problem now.

Maybe but it's better then killing them, no?

 

[Dirk]

Maybe but it's better then killing them, no?

Of course.

I'm just saying that your solution would be at the cost of workers' livelihoods.