I noticed that evidence and logic tend to be good silver bullets to the 9/11 truth movement. 
Porsteam - I was just looking at the intelligence as a whole. You stated that we shouldn't trust intelligence now since it has failed in the past. I basically agreed and said that's why we read their reports carefully now.
Porsteam - I was just looking at the intelligence as a whole. You stated that we shouldn't trust intelligence now since it has failed in the past. I basically agreed and said that's why we read their reports carefully now.
Gotcha! sorry.I noticed that evidence and logic tend to be good silver bullets to the 9/11 truth movement.
Porsteam - I was just looking at the intelligence as a whole. You stated that we shouldn't trust intelligence now since it has failed in the past. I basically agreed and said that's why we read their reports carefully now.
Shhhh everyone, those firemen that heard explosions at the bottom of the tower? well , they were sleep walking that day. It was never printed in any paper and they might have been on something. Shhhh forget you ever heard it.
the states official word is the one we should trust with absolute 100% authority.
GO SHEEPLE GO!!!!!! YAYYYYYYYYYYY SHEEPLE!!!! SHEEPLE POWER!!!
the states official word is the one we should trust with absolute 100% authority.
GO SHEEPLE GO!!!!!! YAYYYYYYYYYYY SHEEPLE!!!! SHEEPLE POWER!!!
What a delightful addition to the debate. I post valid evidence showing that the firemen were misquoted and you yell things and run out of the room. (I had my hopes up after a semi-coherent question in the Chuck Baldwin thread).
I'll go ahead and answer the question you posted over there here.
This is why I think the 9/11 movement is nutty. This. Right up there. See it. Everyone who questions the movement is viewed as an idiot who is a pawn of the government. I don't trust anything that the government throws out to us (unless it's from an independent group with the government, like the Congressional Budget Office and their audits). I don't even necessarily trust what the overwhelming amount of experts say. I look at the arguments on both. I've read everything that 9/11 truth has to offer. There has not been a single argument that worked.
Believe it or not, some of us actually read the reports or summations of the reports that they send out. Some of us ask REAL engineers and physicists for extra explanations. Some of us make an effort to understand the mechanics. We don't just throw up our hands and say "Obviously the evil government did it."
9/11 Truth is nutty because they are deniers. They sadly employ the exact same tactics used by Creationists, ID's proponents, and Holocaust Deniers. I'll apologize for the Godwin, but I've done papers and research on all three movements for a seminar. Each of the three movements grabs onto one half-truth or lie that matches their confirmation bias. They then build a small collection of evidence that matches their outlook and reject everything else as lies from their opponents. It's sad how predictable each one goes.
My only happiness is that 9/11 has been on life support for a long time. Most of the people on the fence fell on the skeptical side and walked away. It was fulled by teenage rebellion and a hatred of Bush. Now that he's gone, it will only be held by the crazies who think that Reptilians have infiltrated the government (Or the NWO, or the Illuminate, or the Jews, or the British, or the Elite, etc).
I'll go ahead and answer the question you posted over there here.
This is why I think the 9/11 movement is nutty. This. Right up there. See it. Everyone who questions the movement is viewed as an idiot who is a pawn of the government. I don't trust anything that the government throws out to us (unless it's from an independent group with the government, like the Congressional Budget Office and their audits). I don't even necessarily trust what the overwhelming amount of experts say. I look at the arguments on both. I've read everything that 9/11 truth has to offer. There has not been a single argument that worked.
Believe it or not, some of us actually read the reports or summations of the reports that they send out. Some of us ask REAL engineers and physicists for extra explanations. Some of us make an effort to understand the mechanics. We don't just throw up our hands and say "Obviously the evil government did it."
9/11 Truth is nutty because they are deniers. They sadly employ the exact same tactics used by Creationists, ID's proponents, and Holocaust Deniers. I'll apologize for the Godwin, but I've done papers and research on all three movements for a seminar. Each of the three movements grabs onto one half-truth or lie that matches their confirmation bias. They then build a small collection of evidence that matches their outlook and reject everything else as lies from their opponents. It's sad how predictable each one goes.
My only happiness is that 9/11 has been on life support for a long time. Most of the people on the fence fell on the skeptical side and walked away. It was fulled by teenage rebellion and a hatred of Bush. Now that he's gone, it will only be held by the crazies who think that Reptilians have infiltrated the government (Or the NWO, or the Illuminate, or the Jews, or the British, or the Elite, etc).
The problem is that even if the government was truly deceptive, as you said, the "rebels" tend to be misinformed individuals who go out and rant, but they do nothing about it. So even if the government is "evil" nothing is going to be done about it regardless of how many people believe a theory. And while some of those theories take it too far, there is definitely CORRUPTION in our government. Whoever thinks otherwise lives under a rock. If corruption continues to get out of hand, our democracy will just keep that name but mean absolutely nothing.
Yeah, most of the debunkers have long since gotten bored with all the "rebels" in 9/11 truth. We only really organized when they got a decent surge back in 2006. Then Gravy at JREF helped build his list of Gravysites which tore apart every semi-sane 9/11 theory that the truthers put forward. The only reason we are still on it is because it's so easy to rip most of the theories to shreds. They haven't tread any new ground in a long time.
The 9/11 Truth movement was a bunch of angsty teenagers linking up with existing conspiracy theorists so that they could fight the man. It's partically gone now that Bush is out of office. Just a few diehards making a last stand.
I won't argue that there is corruption in DC, but it's nothing too sinister (except for special cases). It's usually the standard efforts of big business and lobbyists (on both sides of the aisle) to get what they want. Politics at its best and worst. The important thing is that most of this is pretty easy to see. Campaign financing is usually pretty clear and they do try to work the corruption out.
The 9/11 Truth movement was a bunch of angsty teenagers linking up with existing conspiracy theorists so that they could fight the man. It's partically gone now that Bush is out of office. Just a few diehards making a last stand.
I won't argue that there is corruption in DC, but it's nothing too sinister (except for special cases). It's usually the standard efforts of big business and lobbyists (on both sides of the aisle) to get what they want. Politics at its best and worst. The important thing is that most of this is pretty easy to see. Campaign financing is usually pretty clear and they do try to work the corruption out.
this is probably the best place for people who are interested in learning the truth. From the first time I watched 9/11 Mysteries my life has never been the same and in a really good way. You see the world as it really is and finally the bubble you have been living in slowly starts to pop. By the time it has fully popped you will have completly different views on ET's, UFO's ther government, the royals, underground bases etc etc etc.
For anyone wanting the best video to watch google 911 Mysteries. but be warned it will change your life.
For anyone wanting the best video to watch google 911 Mysteries. but be warned it will change your life.
No...9/11 truth feeds into the minds of the paranoid and makes them feel like they are in the heart of their own action movie.
I'd love to actually hear your reasoning behind this. Please stop just referring us to videos you've watch. If I spent all my time watching every video a conspiracy nut made, then I'd get nothing done.
I'd love to actually hear your reasoning behind this. Please stop just referring us to videos you've watch. If I spent all my time watching every video a conspiracy nut made, then I'd get nothing done.
LOL, I agree with you, however if you honestly think the government had nothing to do with 911 then you should watch 911 mysteries. I gurantee by the end of it you will come back here and say
"Wow, the evidence in that video was more than enough proof I needed. I can't believe the guys that made the towers made them to take multiple plane impacts. Why were there explosions before the planes even hit? Why do all other buildings that have a steel core that catch fire still have a steel core left standing? Why did these buildings make molten lava, needed from thermate, thermites best friend"
Those are the things you will say after you watch that one video. Many people make shitty little things on youtube that waste peoples time, this however does not. It is informative and gives clear evidence throughout the entire video from people that work in all the industries. Watch it with an open mind and you will see that all the 'nuts' out there may actually have something!
I really doubt that they'd change my mind. Those videos thrive because they throw out a bunch of ideas that are usually not true. To start with, there weren't explosions before the planes hit. Never even heard that one before in my run ins at JREF.
The steel core collapsed because 30 floors fell on top of it. It was a pancake effect.
Thermite isn't nearly as strong or effective as the conspiracy crowd makes it out to be. I'm a little confused about the point you're trying to make.
911 simply can't be denied any longer by the majority of the American public, or the international public for that matter. It's time Bush and Cheney and the rest of their little gang are put up on war crimes by the public. It doesn't matter what angle you look at this from, something is severley wrong. You have them ceasing tapes of the pentagon and the towers, you have the towers falling they were blown from the inside and not to mention they fell at a free fall speed, this is impossible unless detonation happened. It's time all the sheeple got off the couch and go and have a look at your computer....
It's actually quite possible for them to dismiss 9/11 truth. The movement is down to a few paranoid people living in basements. Their last protest had about 20 people at it, right?
Also please get the bloody physics right. There is a reason that the engineers didn't say it was a detonation. It doesn't match up. The building collapsed on itself. The weight of the damaged top section gave way and crushed all the floors below it. It's that simple.
Do you even understand the years of secret preparation the controlled demolition would take? That it would have blown out windows all around it? That it's physically not possible for them to have bribed/intimidated the millions of engineers in the world?
Also please get the bloody physics right. There is a reason that the engineers didn't say it was a detonation. It doesn't match up. The building collapsed on itself. The weight of the damaged top section gave way and crushed all the floors below it. It's that simple.
Do you even understand the years of secret preparation the controlled demolition would take? That it would have blown out windows all around it? That it's physically not possible for them to have bribed/intimidated the millions of engineers in the world?
While surfing the net one day, i came across a site which amazed it..i read it thoroghly and it convinced me that 9/11 had 'hand' of America too in it..
It had motive, it had the proof..
Or else how else can you explain me that such a tall building, that is strong enough to withstand plane collision, stumbled down ? It had internal controlled explosions due to which it had a free-fall instead of falling sideways..
Also Governors and high profile people were adviced not to travel on that SAME day..Scotland Yard didnt allow Salman Rushdie to travel that day.
Plane Debri and Blackbox of the plane never recovered..
The grass near the Pentagon,where the plane supposedly dragged had no signs of it..
It had motive, it had the proof..
Or else how else can you explain me that such a tall building, that is strong enough to withstand plane collision, stumbled down ? It had internal controlled explosions due to which it had a free-fall instead of falling sideways..
Also Governors and high profile people were adviced not to travel on that SAME day..Scotland Yard didnt allow Salman Rushdie to travel that day.
Plane Debri and Blackbox of the plane never recovered..
The grass near the Pentagon,where the plane supposedly dragged had no signs of it..
I agree. But some will always believe Bush caused 9/11, global warming, volcanic eruptions, cancer, heart disease and more. When in fact they just hate him and want to believe anything bad they hear or read from any nut job on the web.
Yeah. The truthers don't like to admit it, but the most support that their movement ever received was when a bunch of angst filled teenagers wanted another reason to hate Bush.
Again - Responding to the person above you - It fell straight down because it collapsed. The fires gutted the damaged building and removed the support. Please don't use physics in your argument if you don't understand the basic ideas.
Again - Responding to the person above you - It fell straight down because it collapsed. The fires gutted the damaged building and removed the support. Please don't use physics in your argument if you don't understand the basic ideas.
I believe the building collapsed on itself. Think that was the finding of the engineers right at the beginning. Where I have a problem is the perfect execution of all those planes taking off on their suicide-missions at the same time. And all of it making through the airport security systems at the exact right timings. Especially after my expat period here in the Middle East, what are the chances of a successful operation orchestrated over so many timezones, from an area of the world that has less than perfect communications? If three out of four had been disasters, and one hit had been successful, maybe it would have been more credible, but this whole operation was so perfectly coordinated, I just cannot believe it could have been the work of El Qaeda. Not on that detailed level of perfection with the timings.
I don't know who have been responsible for this operation, and am not pointing a finger at US Government or Israel, but I am totally convinced that El Qaeda was just a front cover and willing partner "after the fact".
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You'd be surprised at how well Al Qaeda works. The cell technique is genius. They can do the operations over such distances, because the leader of the cell is basically their own commander. The only difficulty would be sending more money/supplies, which wasn't really that necessary in this case. They gave the cell their missions and sent them on their way.
The rest isn't really that hard to do either. Airport security still is far from perfect. I know I could sneak things through in my laptop case if I really had to do so. It wouldn't have been that hard to get little box cutters through the checkpoint.
The rest really wasn't that effective either.
The WTC hits were not nearly as damaging as they could have been. The delay in the second impact (nearly 40 minutes if I remember correctly) let the evacuation carry on and greatly reduced the death toll.
The hit at the Pentagon could basically be viewed as a failure on the whole. There wasn't much of a lasting impact and it didn't seem to greatly impact infrastructure.
The fourth plane had to abort due to the passenger uprising.
If it was an intelligence agency doing it, then they didn't do a very good job.
The rest isn't really that hard to do either. Airport security still is far from perfect. I know I could sneak things through in my laptop case if I really had to do so. It wouldn't have been that hard to get little box cutters through the checkpoint.
The rest really wasn't that effective either.
The WTC hits were not nearly as damaging as they could have been. The delay in the second impact (nearly 40 minutes if I remember correctly) let the evacuation carry on and greatly reduced the death toll.
The hit at the Pentagon could basically be viewed as a failure on the whole. There wasn't much of a lasting impact and it didn't seem to greatly impact infrastructure.
The fourth plane had to abort due to the passenger uprising.
If it was an intelligence agency doing it, then they didn't do a very good job.
Perhaps that is valid for today, but 2001 I have a problem with. Today is definitely a different scenario, all one has to do is look at the Mumbai terrorism at end of last year, wow, are these guys well trained, mobile, efficient and effective. But back in 2001, they were still crude. To me their pursuit at that time, i.e. 2001, was as mystical as the pursuit of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and if ever El Quaeda wanted media coverage, the media in the United States gave them everything they needed to become powerful and famous after Sept11.
Don't underestimate them. Their cell system has been around for awhile. It's really pretty basic for guerrilla warfare and could probably be traced back a lot further. The men were also fairly well educated from what I remember. I actually thought that was the reason that they didn't attack a nuclear power plant. They knew that a plane wouldn't be able to penetrate the shielding.
An important thing to remember is that the attack was primitive. The most expensive thing they had to pay for was the housing and flight school. Neither of these would have been hard to obtain back before 9/11. Their weapons were box cutters and other cheap weapons that could be bought anywhere. The training wasn't exactly hard either. They weren't learning to be expert pilots. Mythbusters showed that any idiot can at least keep a plane in the air, and that basic knowledge of the layout would give you fairly good control. It was just a standard hijacking for the most part too. Nothing that was really that hard to pull off.
An important thing to remember is that the attack was primitive. The most expensive thing they had to pay for was the housing and flight school. Neither of these would have been hard to obtain back before 9/11. Their weapons were box cutters and other cheap weapons that could be bought anywhere. The training wasn't exactly hard either. They weren't learning to be expert pilots. Mythbusters showed that any idiot can at least keep a plane in the air, and that basic knowledge of the layout would give you fairly good control. It was just a standard hijacking for the most part too. Nothing that was really that hard to pull off.
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