America's LEGAL immigration problem

Patrick · Aug 30, 2011

The US admits about one million legal immigrants a year. The top countries of origin are Mexico, China, India, Vietnam and Cuba. These countries are either dictatorships, or have a long tradition of statism.

With leftwingers in control of the institutions these people are likely to encounter (the federal bureaucracy, the K12 schools, the universities) they are very unlikely to get any sense of the founding principles and values of this country, eg, liberty, rule of written law, self-reliance, loyalty to the country as opposed to the ethnic group or tribe, free markets, entrepreneurship, liberal (old meaning) democracy.

Because of their background, I think the vast majority of them will carry over values from the old country, the worst of which is a presumption that it is appropriate that the central government owns or controls all the significant institutions of society, in fact it's probably hard for them to imagine anything else. They aren't likely to get the idea communicated to them that america has been a unique place, that it's the one place where the government isn't the supreme overwhelmingly important entity, but rather that the people are. From the libs, they get the current lib notion that america is little more than an address, a country responsible for everything bad that has ever happened, and that what matters is groups - ethnicities and races and economic classes, not patriotism.

With this mindset, there's little doubt whom the majority will vote for.

myp · Aug 30, 2011

I stopped reading after the first sentence. India is the largest (colloquial) democracy in the world (actually a constitutional republic like the US) as is Mexico (a constit. repub. not largest). India has been such for over 60 years, and Mexico for almost 100.

Patrick · Aug 30, 2011

myp said:
I stopped reading after the first sentence.

Likewise.

.........

myp · Aug 30, 2011

Not surprised. You don't like facts much, do you?

Edit: I meant the first paragraph, not sentence by the way.

David · Aug 30, 2011

I stopped reading after liberal democracy, why the hell would I want immigrants accepting that idea, it's a horrible system of gov't that needs to be done away with sooner rather then later.

Patrick · Aug 30, 2011

myp said:
Not surprised. You don't like facts much, do you?

Edit: I meant the first paragraph, not sentence by the way.

Sorry to be blunt, but you're ........ careful now............[euphemism]uniformed[/euphemism].

I keep promising myself I'm not here to tutor people, but I'll make another exception.

1. That a country is a democracy does not preclude that it's statist. Statist means a large number of social functionns, handled privately in some countries, notably the US pre-obama , are controlled by the state.

2. I'll take India as an example, and let you repair your lack of knowledge of mexico on your own time. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about India knows it was socialist for a very long time. In the 1990s, like China, they began slowly freeing themselves from their backward socialist policies, but they are still highly statist. Eg, the health care system is state run, like Britain's NHS, with all the negative consequences that implies.

So suppose an indian came here five years ago, and is now a citizen. What would he presumably tell his congressman about obamacare? Vote FOR it, everyone knows the government should run healthcare - right? Right.

Get it yet, Sparky?

myp · Aug 30, 2011

No need for the smartass tone.

I know very well that India and China both had considerable periods of protectionist policy. They were not, however, statist. Nor did the people not like the benefits of a republic. And guess what? Something you probably didn't know is that my parents were born in India. Both of them- they grew up there and came here in the 70s and 80s respectively. They are also both against Obamacare and they both also tremendously value freedom. And I know many other Indians personally who also immigrated during the same period and feel similarly. Do not try to make up nonsense that you know nothing about because of your racist, anti-immigration, "conservative" ideology. If you have data or surveys that is another thing, but just to assume is a deadly and foolish game.

It is sad that you call yourself a conservative, yet you have forgotten the damn ideals of this very country. It was a place of opportunity for all, not just for a select group of elitists who have been here forever because no one was here forever unless they are a native american.

David · Aug 30, 2011

myp said:
No need for the smartass tone.

I know very well that India and China both had considerable periods of protectionist policy. They were not, however, statist. Nor did the people not like the benefits of a republic. And guess what? Something you probably didn't know is that my parents were born in India. Both of them- they grew up there and came here in the 70s and 80s respectively. They are also both against Obamacare and they both also tremendously value freedom. And I know many other Indians personally who also immigrated during the same period and feel similarly. Do not try to make up nonsense that you know nothing about because of your racist, anti-immigration, "conservative" ideology. If you have data or surveys that is another thing, but just to assume is a deadly and foolish game.

It is sad that you call yourself a conservative, yet you have forgotten the damn ideals of this very country. It was a place of opportunity for all, not just for a select group of elitists who have been here forever because no one was here forever unless they are a native american.

Even they have only been here for a few thousand years (while humanity has existed for 3 million odd years for prospective). This whole anti-immigrant bashing is stupid, nothing worse then when some idiot tells an American to 'go back where they came from' when not only are they from America but have a longer family history in America all because they're not white. I remember a stupid mosque protest last year where the protesters threw that out and several Muslims shouted back that they were from down the street or a few blocks away, born and raised. :giggle:

Patrick · Aug 31, 2011

myp said:
No need for the smartass tone.

I know very well that India and China both had considerable periods of protectionist policy.

Sorry, you can have your own opinions, but not your own facts. No ifs ands or buts, although they've improved a little in the last several years, India has ALWAYS been statist. From wiki article

India has followed central planning for most of its independent history, which have included extensive public ownership, regulation, red tape, and trade barriers.

Read up.

Patrick · Aug 31, 2011

David said:
Even they have only been here for a few thousand years (while humanity has existed for 3 million odd years for prospective). This whole anti-immigrant bashing is stupid, nothing worse then when some idiot tells an American to 'go back where they came from' when not only are they from America but have a longer family history in America all because they're not white. I remember a stupid mosque protest last year where the protesters threw that out and several Muslims shouted back that they were from down the street or a few blocks away, born and raised.

Shaddup, idiot.

David · Aug 31, 2011

Patrick said:
Shaddup, idiot.

What the hell is that even supposed to mean? Your'e not even reponding to point any more, just posting glorified 'no u's.

myp · Aug 31, 2011

Central planning is not statism. If so, Bernanke and the Fed might lead the pack in the world right now

Are you saying the US is statist?

The point is that there are levels of central planning. But even that aside, you completely ignored the rest of my post because you know damn well that you were just fabricating. I know the Indian mentality pretty well- my parents even moreso and I can tell you most people there don't expect government handouts. That is probably more common in the States' than it is there.

Furthermore, many of those people have seen firsthand the horror of protectionism and corrupt government. They can think critically just as you and I can (although sometimes I question if you actually can

) and know first hand how bad an overreaching government can be.

DodgeFB · Aug 31, 2011

myp said:
Central planning is not statism. If so, Bernanke and the Fed might lead the pack in the world right now Are you saying the US is statist?

The point is that there are levels of central planning. But even that aside, you completely ignored the rest of my post because you know damn well that you were just fabricating. I know the Indian mentality pretty well- my parents even moreso and I can tell you most people there don't expect government handouts. That is probably more common in the States' than it is there.

Furthermore, many of those people have seen firsthand the horror of protectionism and corrupt government. They can think critically just as you and I can (although sometimes I question if you actually can ) and know first hand how bad an overreaching government can be.

At least the reason I want to slow immigration is the same reason I wish all people here would cut back a % or two on the "breeding" thing. Oh and please

Patrick · Aug 31, 2011

David said:
What the hell is that even supposed to mean? Your'e not even reponding to point any more, just posting glorified 'no u's.

When you stop the jerk-off posts and begin to debate, I may take note that you exist.

Patrick · Aug 31, 2011

myp said:
Central planning is not statism. If so, Bernanke and the Fed might lead the pack in the world right now Are you saying the US is statist?

The point is that there are levels of central planning.

EXACTLY, einstein.

But even that aside, you completely ignored the rest of my post because you know damn well that you were just fabricating. I know the Indian mentality pretty well- my parents even moreso and I can tell you most people there don't expect government handouts. That is probably more common in the States' than it is there.

Don't lecture me about India - I lived there for two months, and the issue isn't just handouts.

Furthermore, many of those people have seen firsthand the horror of protectionism and corrupt government.

The issue isn't only corruption - quit trying to nibble around the edges. The issue is the general view the government is the primary institution of society.

myp · Aug 31, 2011

So you lived there for 2 months and are an expert? Lol- I've "lived" there for that long too when my family went to visit. It doesn't count as living there.

And corruption is a huge issue in India. Noted politically as one of their greatest hindrances to growth. That aside though as I already said people there generally DO NOT expect government to take care of all their needs with entitlements. They don't have that much faith in government. You need to start looking at things objectively instead of in your little dream world.

Skydog · Aug 31, 2011

Patrick said:
The US admits about one million legal immigrants a year. The top countries of origin are Mexico, China, India, Vietnam and Cuba. These countries are either dictatorships, or have a long tradition of statism.

With leftwingers in control of the institutions these people are likely to encounter (the federal bureaucracy, the K12 schools, the universities) they are very unlikely to get any sense of the founding principles and values of this country, eg, liberty, rule of written law, self-reliance, loyalty to the country as opposed to the ethnic group or tribe, free markets, entrepreneurship, liberal (old meaning) democracy.

Because of their background, I think the vast majority of them will carry over values from the old country, the worst of which is a presumption that it is appropriate that the central government owns or controls all the significant institutions of society, in fact it's probably hard for them to imagine anything else. They aren't likely to get the idea communicated to them that america has been a unique place, that it's the one place where the government isn't the supreme overwhelmingly important entity, but rather that the people are. From the libs, they get the current lib notion that america is little more than an address, a country responsible for everything bad that has ever happened, and that what matters is groups - ethnicities and races and economic classes, not patriotism.

With this mindset, there's little doubt whom the majority will vote for.

What you seem to miss in this post is that if you're not a native American, you were born from immigrants somewhere down the line. What if there were as many silly people when your ancestors immigrated here. Who knows where you'd be posting from.

Patrick · Aug 31, 2011

myp said:
So you lived there for 2 months and are an expert? Lol- I've "lived" there for that long too when my family went to visit. It doesn't count as living there.

And corruption is a huge issue in India. Noted politically as one of their greatest hindrances to growth. That aside though as I already said people there generally DO NOT expect government to take care of all their needs with entitlements. They don't have that much faith in government. You need to start looking at things objectively instead of in your little dream world.

Skipping the rest of what I said? Don't blame you. Who said "all their needs"? You keep dancing around what I actually say like a singed moth.

myp · Aug 31, 2011

Stop with the semantics. Rephrased: "their primary wants such as food, healthcare, retirement money"

Patrick · Aug 31, 2011

myp said:
Stop with the semantics.

That you garble the english language to incoherence is someone else's "semantics"??

No ifs, India is and always has been a statist society.

Heritage Foundation ranking of statism (higher number = more statism):

Israel: 37
India: 104
Bolivia: 112
China: 119
Russia: 120
Vietnam: 138
Venezuela:144

U.S.: 4

America's LEGAL immigration problem

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