Are you an Austrian?

David · Apr 3, 2011

Iolo said:
What I am objecting to is the pretence that there is anything 'legal' about property, which is, private or personal, all based on theft of some kind in the past. Obviously it is convenient at various times that various people are allowed to control part of this - essentially common before stolen - property, but I think it is ludicrous for them to get all holy about it, like the zionists as they kill children in a land to which they have no conceivable claim. Personal use of property just happens, but why have we to endure all this self-rightious balderdash about it? People worked hard to get it? So do lots more people who get none. It is the way that capitalist nonsense drips into people's heads that bothers me, not their 'owning' toothbrushes or toup?es!

So I'm a thief for not walking around naked? For not walking to work? for having a wallet to hold my money/IDs, for having a roof over my head? Really? :giggle:

DodgeFB · Apr 3, 2011

Iolo said:
What I am objecting to is the pretence that there is anything 'legal' about property, which is, private or personal, all based on theft of some kind in the past. Obviously it is convenient at various times that various people are allowed to control part of this - essentially common before stolen - property, but I think it is ludicrous for them to get all holy about it, like the zionists as they kill children in a land to which they have no conceivable claim. Personal use of property just happens, but why have we to endure all this self-rightious balderdash about it? People worked hard to get it? So do lots more people who get none. It is the way that capitalist nonsense drips into people's heads that bothers me, not their 'owning' toothbrushes or toup?es!

When you start painting people that you do not know with cheap labels like "zionists" you lose me. You clearly have an agenda other than this topic. I have no interest in playing your baiting game. So have a good day.

Iolo · Apr 5, 2011

The only 'agenda' I have is the obvious truth that no-one but a madman can claim to own things 'legally' when they are all the products of crime. The zionists are a perfect example of ideological crap, claiming a territory in which their ancestors never lived by right of no longer believing in a religion their ancestors long since dumped - yet the pro-zionist mugs all believe that as 'the Jews' they can drive out and murder the native (originally Cannaanite, Jewish, Christian, whatever) inhabitants of Palestine and that this somehow puts right the capitalist mass-murder of other people under Hitler's 'biological' nuttiness. In just the same way we have a Chinese-torture drip going on to make a hole in our heads to make us believe that what the thieves tell us is 'true' because no-one challenges it. Old David is getting terribly worked up because he has been brainwashed into believing in absolute property rights, like a kid believing in the permanence of sandcastles. It is all a dream caused by the capitalist drug-programme, let's face it. Ideology always sets up certain 'holy' areas like zionism and property that no-one is allowed to question. It's very like the Spanish Inquisition or the thought-world of Senator McCarthy.

David · Apr 7, 2011

Iolo said:
The only 'agenda' I have is the obvious truth that no-one but a madman can claim to own things 'legally' when they are all the products of crime. The zionists are a perfect example of ideological crap, claiming a territory in which their ancestors never lived by right of no longer believing in a religion their ancestors long since dumped - yet the pro-zionist mugs all believe that as 'the Jews' they can drive out and murder the native (originally Cannaanite, Jewish, Christian, whatever) inhabitants of Palestine and that this somehow puts right the capitalist mass-murder of other people under Hitler's 'biological' nuttiness. In just the same way we have a Chinese-torture drip going on to make a hole in our heads to make us believe that what the thieves tell us is 'true' because no-one challenges it. Old David is getting terribly worked up because he has been brainwashed into believing in absolute property rights, like a kid believing in the permanence of sandcastles. It is all a dream caused by the capitalist drug-programme, let's face it. Ideology always sets up certain 'holy' areas like zionism and property that no-one is allowed to question. It's very like the Spanish Inquisition or the thought-world of Senator McCarthy.

Do you walk around naked? Do you walk everywhere, even if it's a 100+ miles away? Do you only eat food gained by hunting/farming? Do you live under the stars? No? Thief!

obtuseobserver · Apr 7, 2011

Iolo said:
Old David is getting terribly worked up because he has been brainwashed into believing in absolute property rights, like a kid believing in the permanence of sandcastles.

I own a house and a car. I have a legal right to possess because I paid for them.

What you are espousing is a belief in conflict with reality. Perhaps a preferred way to view the world but it isn't the way the world actually works.

If anyone is contemplating sandcastles it's the guy arguing that all property is theft.

Iolo · Apr 8, 2011

obtuseobserver said:
I own a house and a car. I have a legal right to possess because I paid for them.

What you are espousing is a belief in conflict with reality. Perhaps a preferred way to view the world but it isn't the way the world actually works.

If anyone is contemplating sandcastles it's the guy arguing that all property is theft.

You are a child. You 'own' what was stolen from other people, and thieves always prefer not to discuss such touchy matters. You have a 'legal' right based on the fact that all your taxes go to pay for the military to go thieving abroad and stop thefts being taken back. Don't be sillier than capitalism made you!

DodgeFB · Apr 8, 2011

Iolo said:
You are a child. You 'own' what was stolen from other people, and thieves always prefer not to discuss such touchy matters. You have a 'legal' right based on the fact that all your taxes go to pay for the military to go thieving abroad and stop thefts being taken back. Don't be sillier than capitalism made you!

And you are insulting and childish! Let me make this damn straight skippy! The SOB that built my house was well paid for his trouble. And did a half-ass job of it at that! So it is my damn house.

Iolo · Apr 9, 2011

DodgeFB said:
And you are insulting and childish! Let me make this damn straight skippy! The SOB that built my house was well paid for his trouble. And did a half-ass job of it at that! So it is my damn house.

As was Al Capone's, doubtless, and Hitler's. Your point? What did you pay (assuming you live in the USA) for the native-American land or the black labour that built your society? What did your colonial masters pay for the wealth they needed to introduce capitalist industry and stole from Spain? What did the Spaniards pay for the gold they stole from Peru? What did the Incas pay for what they stole from others? I'm afraid I shall remain insulting and childish until you explain how receivers of stolen goods can make those goods legally theirs.

David · Apr 9, 2011

Iolo said:
As was Al Capone's, doubtless, and Hitler's. Your point? What did you pay (assuming you live in the USA) for the native-American land or the black labour that built your society? What did your colonial masters pay for the wealth they needed to introduce capitalist industry and stole from Spain? What did the Spaniards pay for the gold they stole from Peru? What did the Incas pay for what they stole from others? I'm afraid I shall remain insulting and childish until you explain how receivers of stolen goods can make those goods legally theirs.

I note that you ignored my point.

Iolo · Apr 10, 2011

David said:
I note that you ignored my point.

I don't understand your point. You personally want to put the world right by going around naked? You personally are the only human who creates wealth without relation to the past? I am not talking about ideology but about the reality that ALL property, everywhere and always, has inevitably a vast element of theft embodied in it. It is not difficult to grasp.

David · Apr 10, 2011

Iolo said:
I don't understand your point. You personally want to put the world right by going around naked? You personally are the only human who creates wealth without relation to the past? I am not talking about ideology but about the reality that ALL property, everywhere and always, has inevitably a vast element of theft embodied in it. It is not difficult to grasp.

No, I'm saying that's what you're saying. If all property is theft then you're ether a thief yourself and shouldn't be talking or you're a naked, homeless hunter/gather that walks everywhere because clothes, homes, groceries and cars are all forms of property property.

Iolo · Apr 11, 2011

David said:
No, I'm saying that's what you're saying. If all property is theft then you're ether a thief yourself and shouldn't be talking or you're a naked, homeless hunter/gather that walks everywhere because clothes, homes, groceries and cars are all forms of property property.

Ah - you're a Quaker! I'm afraid there is no way you can get rid of the consequences of large-scale theft, friend, and keep capitalism. What we need to do is to get back to where we were at the start: everything belongs to everyone, that's all. The trick is to run our common property democratically.

DodgeFB · Apr 11, 2011

Iolo said:
Ah - you're a Quaker! I'm afraid there is no way you can get rid of the consequences of large-scale theft, friend, and keep capitalism. What we need to do is to get back to where we were at the start: everything belongs to everyone, that's all. The trick is to run our common property democratically.

That will never happen here. Love it or hate it,"capitalism" is here to stay. And when I look at the way people live in most "capitalism" hating places I think it is just jealousy. And I know jealousy is a terrible feeling.

Iolo · Apr 11, 2011

I am deeply jealous of fleas too, and lice. You want to live in a world of thieves, fine: just don't get all holy about it, because all you've got is swag.

David · Apr 11, 2011

Iolo said:
Ah - you're a Quaker! I'm afraid there is no way you can get rid of the consequences of large-scale theft, friend, and keep capitalism. What we need to do is to get back to where we were at the start: everything belongs to everyone, that's all. The trick is to run our common property democratically.

I'm not giving my car to some bozo off the street (or I wouldn't if I had 1) as I'd need it to get from point A. to Point B and couldn't guarantee having it on hand, nor would I let a total stranger were my shirt for obvious health reasons. As I said before, I agree with you generally but I make a distinction between public, private and personal property.

Iolo · Apr 12, 2011

David said:
I'm not giving my car to some bozo off the street (or I wouldn't if I had 1) as I'd need it to get from point A. to Point B and couldn't guarantee having it on hand, nor would I let a total stranger were my shirt for obvious health reasons. As I said before, I agree with you generally but I make a distinction between public, private and personal property.

Fair enough. Who asked you to give your car to anyone, however? Keep using it and kill your own grandchildren: that's american liberty, but the trouble is you'll kill mine too. Public transport would save some lives, but that would lose some big thieves money, of course, and they tell you what to think, so there we are. Your distinction is unreal, but, yes, it helps people believe capitalism is other than totally criminal, if belief is your thing.

DodgeFB · Apr 12, 2011

Iolo said:
Fair enough. Who asked you to give your car to anyone, however? Keep using it and kill your own grandchildren: that's american liberty, but the trouble is you'll kill mine too. Public transport would save some lives, but that would lose some big thieves money, of course, and they tell you what to think, so there we are. Your distinction is unreal, but, yes, it helps people believe capitalism is other than totally criminal, if belief is your thing.

Just let me say, not everywhere people live has "Public transport". I would need to walk half a day to get to a place with a bus. Don't worry about me killing your grandchildren. My grandchildren and great grandchildren are doing very well thank you.

Iolo · Apr 12, 2011

DodgeFB said:
Just let me say, not everywhere people live has "Public transport". I would need to walk half a day to get to a place with a bus. Don't worry about me killing your grandchildren. My grandchildren and great grandchildren are doing very well thank you.

As yet. We have to work to get public transport, which will keep 'em around ten years or so more. You are like the bloke who jumped off the Empire State Building, aren't you? He'd fallen ten floors and he was still okay, so there you are then!

DodgeFB · Apr 12, 2011

Iolo said:
As yet. We have to work to get public transport, which will keep 'em around ten years or so more. You are like the bloke who jumped off the Empire State Building, aren't you? He'd fallen ten floors and he was still okay, so there you are then!

No, not really.

David · Apr 12, 2011

Iolo said:
Fair enough. Who asked you to give your car to anyone, however? Keep using it and kill your own grandchildren: that's american liberty, but the trouble is you'll kill mine too. Public transport would save some lives, but that would lose some big thieves money, of course, and they tell you what to think, so there we are. Your distinction is unreal, but, yes, it helps people believe capitalism is other than totally criminal, if belief is your thing.

My distinction isn't unreal, it's a recognition that not everything is meant to be shared. Just because it's wrong to horde food when everyone around you is starving doesn't mean it's wrong when you didn't divide your 1 Big Mac between 100 people.

Am I correct in assuming you're a hard-line Marxist (I didn't see you state your position yet, maybe i missed it.)? And that's an honest question, not an attack.

Are you an Austrian?

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