Assassination of Kennedy

Arlen spectar is a joke and so is his magic bullet theory that the american people didnt accept. The house select committee on assasinations also didnt agree with it and they also came to teh conclusion that if oswald did do the shooting he couldnt have done it alone. That was their way of saying, " ok we will tell you a part of the truth". Are any of you folks gonna protest why the government has closed up a massive amount of info on the assasination and wont be unlocked for the public to see until the year 2029? I mean dont you folks think this is a little weird, but its cool we should just blindly trust our government

YES!!!! Someone finally brought up the magic bullet. I've been waiting and waiting for it. I have a cool documentary that answers that question. ( and it was taken off Youtube )

Oh well...here's the synopsis. Really cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory

A Discovery Channel special "Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet", attempted to replicate, as well as possible, the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. These studies showed that largely undeformed bullets were possible to produce, if they were slowed by a passage though a tissue-like substance before striking bone. Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman, from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository, using a round from the same batch of "Western Case Cartridge Company" 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. However, this bullet came close enough to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory#cite_note-30

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The Parakeet said:

YES!!!! Someone finally brought up the magic bullet. I've been waiting and waiting for it. I have a cool documentary that answers that question. ( and it was taken off Youtube )

Oh well...here's the synopsis. Really cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_bullet_theory

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Please only reliable posts, not biased posts like discovery or the classic history channel who dont even bring up any interviews from people who had to come in before the warren comission. The single bullet theory was a joke. Colonel fletcher prouty is bigger authority on the assasination since he was a former head of black ops. I would comment on the discovery channel but its too big of a joke.
Lets see some unbiased views.

Also parakeet why would our own government keep most of the information away from us until the year 2029? My guess is no one will touch this question including u, and it probably doesnt alarm u at all.

I will say this again for the benefit of people just joining the thread. We classify tons of things. It is standard operating procedure that government files are classified for 75 years.

Your evasion is noted. It tells a lot that you won't even consider the evidence that the have. They were able to almost perfectly recreate the shot and it followed the one path. I don't know what else you want. It's obviously possible. I don't care who did the test. If there method was proper then there isn't a problem.

All you have is a bunch of hearsay on the issue and claims of a conspiracy. Real scientists are too busy to listen to nuts talk about their 15 minutes of fame. They are actually testing the theories and seeing if they work.

Any response to their test other than "Discovery is a shill so their test is bogus"?

pingpong12 said:

Arlen spectar is a joke and so is his magic bullet theory that the american people didnt accept. The house select committee on assasinations also didnt agree with it and they also came to teh conclusion that if oswald did do the shooting he couldnt have done it alone. That was their way of saying, " ok we will tell you a part of the truth". Are any of you folks gonna protest why the government has closed up a massive amount of info on the assasination and wont be unlocked for the public to see until the year 2029? I mean dont you folks think this is a little weird, but its cool we should just blindly trust our government

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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt3.jpg The magic bullet Theory was coined at the Clay Shaw trial and assumed JFK and Gov. Connally were seated at the same height,which was not the case ( as the picture shows ) The single bullet conclusion is very plausible. 75 years was under a General National Archives policy applied to all Federal Investigations by the Executive Branch of Government. That was supplanted by the FOIA by 1992, 98% of the Warren Commission records have been released to the public by 1998 all reports were available to the public with minor redactions, except for those that contained tax return information (due to the privacy act ) Autopsy and X-rays were never a part of the Warren Commission records and were deeded seperately to the National Archives by the Kennedy family in 1966 under restricted conditions. As for as any information surrounding a conspiracy, that would come under National Security and the CIA and FBI were restricted from suppling that information, even if the Warren Commission had requested it, I don't believe they would have been able to get it with out a legal fight. They couldn't even get the autopsy and X-rays they requested.

Ok we can go on for hours. Your bring up one website who everyone knows is biased for proving that oswald did it, even though there were no fingerrpints found on the rifle, even though not one of the fbi marksmen could perform this assasination the way the warren comission could. We arent gonna even talk about the limosine, or the way that the government swooped in before the doctors at the hospital in dallas could perform their nonbiased autopsy.


Forget about all these things.

Just answer the question of why our governemnt wont let the american people see all the files on this assasination (including the house select comittee) until the year 2029?

Please just answer that question because its actually very easy to bring out tons of information that shows that Oswald couldnt have done the shooting.

We deserve to see all the information now dont you think? Or maybe you agree with keeping any information away from the american people intil 2029?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index.htm

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Right there is a catalog of the documents that have been released so far. It may be a debunking site, but I at least read information from conspiracy websites to understand the other side's point. If they are lying about any of those files, then show it.

Regardless, for the last bloody time, our government was and still is a bit paranoid. We classify tons of stuff that has no reason to be classfied. Our research on Hitler was another good example (sorry for all the Godwin's but I know a lot about WWII so it keeps popping up). They classified a bunch of stupid fun facts for years.

I would also love to see the "facts" showing that Oswald couldn't have done it. I can probably answer most them quickly.

No fingerprints - I don't blame you for this one. You are a child of the CSI generation. Guns usually don't hold great fingerprints with the graining making it hard to pull good ones. Forensics science was also not at its best back then.

I found another link on the McAdams' site. Again, you might disagree with the site, but they are mainly showing examples of other cases where no prints were and I wouldn't feel right stealing that much of their information.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid4.htm

FBI marksmen - This is just wrong. I've seen someone perfectly replicate the shot with a Mercano. At least 3 programs have done it. It's an easy shot. I've always been confused by this argument. His movement was basically nothing for the first two shots and Oswald wasn't trying to be a super sniper. It looked like he was just taking pop-shots at Kennedy's center mass and got lucky. How is shooting a barely moving target, centered in your view, only 200 yards away, from a stationary position, with a ledge to act as a sniper's perch...an impossible shot.

The rifle is crappy and it's a miracle (curse really ) that it didn't jam, but it's easy for a half-decent shot to make the hit. Plus, Oswald did miss one of the shots. He was only 66.7% accurate that day.

And yes...another McAdams' link. Again...it makes a good argument with plenty of citations to the relevant sources. In this case, it was the reports of the actual tests. You can always fact-check.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/zirbel.txt

For those who don't have the time, the synapsis is that the argument is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The marksment hit the target 13 out of 18 times in their time trials. Right on par with Oswald and they were using a damaged scope, which may have been damaged when Oswald hid it. So they may have been at a worse disadvantage (even if it was already mis-sighted, Oswald might not have used it. The iron sights would have been fine for that range).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBeMaEwwvwU&feature=related Here is a video of shooting a Carcano, it proves that the bolt can be operated, rifle aimed and fired within the time frame estimated by the warren Commission. Assuming Oswald was trying to make the head shot, he only made one out of three shots. However what I could not understand is the FBI and Warren Commission used expert marksman to try and recreate Oawalds shots, Oswald was not an expert marksman! So they are saying to make those shots reqiures an expert marksman. Take for example the alleged shooting at Edwin walker, he couldn't even shoot one shot through a stationary window target, less than a 100 ft. He got good real quick! BTW, on sight evidence by the Dallas police showed at least two men and two cars were invoved in the walker shooting, so, If Oswald was involved he had help.

"C:\Program Files\JFK Reloaded\JFK Reloaded.exe" Here is a video game, see if you can make the shots.

Oswald did have some training on the army range and was supposed to be fairly accurate within 200 yards (I might be able to dig up his old army records if someone really wants them). Again though, it looks like he was just taking pop shots at the car. That would explain why the first missed entirely.

Edit: Found them really quick. He definitely passed the Marine Corps tests twice. He wasn't a sniper but he was a decent shot who could aim and hit a general target. I've also been misstating the range (I meant to double check, but I was fairly sure). The final shot was 88 yards at most, so a little over 250 feet not yards. Much easier shot.

Note: Porsteamboy, the file is to a folder on your computer. Try hosting it somewhere else. I'm having trouble finding a good copy anywhere. It's abandonware now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqV-tNL0vbE Here is the game in action, I'll see what I can do on the reloaded game. Again, why use expert marksmen to recreate Oswald shots if they were so easy? Why not get a Marine with the same level of qualification and have him recreate the shots, a little more beliveable. Did the FBI think Oswald was an expert or knew he was, maybe a hit man? Don't know but it seems strange they always use expert marksmen to recreate the shots.

I believe it was explained once upon a time that overall skill didn't really matter. Oswald was basically a solid shooter at that range. Being a sniper or marksmen wouldn't necessarily give you any advantage and he fired the shots too quite for true "marksman" aiming.

As to why they used experts. It might just have to do with using the people who they could get. Not many marines are trained with bolt-action rifles any more (I would imagine). Most marksmen wouldn't have any problem operating a bolt-action rifle quickly though. They were also just looking into whether it was possible for someone to do it. The answer is yes. We'll never really know how much training Oswald did on his own, so all we know is that it's possible for a decent shot over 250 feet to get 66% accuracy.

As to the other recreations, they probably just wanted someone who could shoot consistently. It'd be annoying and a little embarrassing to have someone fumble with the rifle and miss a few shots. Especially if they are shelling out money for original Mercano rounds from the same batch (which a few of the recreations did).

Don't worry too much about the game. Seeing the footage was good enough and I'm already playing too many video games. I would really love to see that shot done

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/us/05forensics.html?_r=2&pagewanted=2&th&emc=th Parakeet, Read this in the morning news, makes you think about the Oswald evidence, in new light.

Pretty sad to see that we're still having problems with evidence processing. Also sad to see that there's still far too many turf wars between the branches of the government. Can't say I necessarily blame the National Institute of Justice for trying to cover their butt though. The sad state of politics in our country.

oswald was average at best and its impossible for him to have done taht shooting with that rifle, impossible for anyone. plus you have a tree in the way. Do any of you guys know any al quaida working in top secret pentagon jobs?????
This is the equivelant of Oswald being pro marxis and being put at a top secret u2 airbase in Japan. Even the most elementary person in knowledge of this assasination could see that Oswald was never a pro communist. He was an agent, and why would a commi want to kill oswald since he was percieved in a positive manner by many communist countries. Even castro at least kennedy was an enemy he could understand and respect.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

It wasn't a hard shot. 200 feet is pretty easy for an average shot, aiming downward, at a slow moving target. We've covered it. The trees were also much shorter back then. They've been allowed to grow out, if I remember correctly.

We already covered his working at the base. Porsteamboy showed that he didn't have that great of clearance and besides that, we did a bunch of stupid stuff with Air Force bases. Like I said, we let pro-Soviet foreign ambassadors tour Area 51. We think that's how they knew about the U2.

I did my best to decrypt the last paragraph. The conclusion wasn't that he was a communist agent. He was a crazy marxist who thought killing Kennedy would help the cause.

That's like saying the shooting of Reagan was obviously a conspiracy because Jodie Foster would have never admired Hinckley for shooting Reagan. It doesn't matter if it makes sense to us. It's what the shooter believes.

pingpong12 said:

oswald was average at best and its impossible for him to have done taht shooting with that rifle, impossible for anyone. plus you have a tree in the way. Do any of you guys know any al quaida working in top secret pentagon jobs?????
This is the equivelant of Oswald being pro marxis and being put at a top secret u2 airbase in Japan. Even the most elementary person in knowledge of this assasination could see that Oswald was never a pro communist. He was an agent, and why would a commi want to kill oswald since he was percieved in a positive manner by many communist countries. Even castro at least kennedy was an enemy he could understand and respect.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1ayL8RXJTs&feature=related Here is a guy shooting a carcano, he gets off 7 shots in 6.8 Sec., all hits. Notice the information about ammo, this may be why Oswald never ordered ammo with his rifle, he may have been aware of this fact. Just because a base has top secret U-2 planes stationed there dosen't mean you have to have a top secret clearence to work on the base. Oswald's job only required a confidential clearence to do his job ( Radar ) but my bet is, he was a gate guard.

If you're interested in actually learning and seeing the truth, not just throwing ideas around, then you should really check out a documentary type thing from William Cooper. this guy shows all the footage of Kennedy and talks in much detail about what happened etc. There is original footage to retouched to specially edited retouched and they all how the exact same thing, Kennedy is killed by the driver of the car. I'm surte if you did a google search on "william cooper jfk" you'd see the film thing and see for yourself. There is absolutely no way it was lee harvey oswald, it was the driver.

Sorry for the edit. Just caught that last line. Don't know how I missed it.

The theory about the driver has been dead in the water for years. I seriously haven't heard a case made for it in a long time. Nothing matches up with it. Give me a second and I'll post another edit when I find the response.

Edit: Here you go

From McAdams, but it sums up the points well and I'd feel bad if I tried to take credit for it.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/faq.txt

9.2.8 JFK was shot by the limousine driver.

False. In an exhibition frequently given at New Age fairs and other
events, a black and white version of the Z-film is shown which appears
to show the limousine driver pointing a gun at JFK. This effect is a fig-
ment of the poor black and white reproduction. What appears to be a
handgun is actually sunlight reflected off the hair of the front seat pas-
senger. The effect is easily seen to be false in the color original.

9.2.9 JFK was accidentally shot by a Secret Service agent.

The book "Mortal Error" presents the theory that the fatal head shot ac-
cidentally came from the weapon of an SS agent in the car following
the limousine. There is no substantial evidence for this theory--no wit-
nesses, no ballistics match of bullet fragments, etc., and the SS rifle, the
AR-15, is too loud to have gone unnoticed by bystanders.

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The Parakeet said:

The theory about the driver has been dead in the water for years. I seriously haven't heard a case made for it in a long time.

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Watch the video mate and you'll see clear as day the driver shooting JFK. It may make no sense but it is who killed him.
At frame 313 the drivers left hand comes over his right shoulder and the gun is clear as day. Here is a link to the whole video
http://www.mininova.org/tor/977739
I'm sure after you watch it from the original to the newest you will see the gun in one of them, then as soon as you identify the gun and rewatch any of the footage, the oldest or newest, you will see the gun in every one of them. Again don't let me tell you, do the research and see the video footage for yourself....