Rather than show my "desperation"...I will bow out with the hope it "might" save me the grief.
Background checks fails and Obama cries
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Rather than show my "desperation"...I will bow out with the hope it "might" save me the grief.
Just like that you walk away, you are that scared of having the discussion on the real issue that you run away.
Why be a member of a debate forum?
You and I have exchanged Ideas, Debated them, and re-issued them. There comes a time when further debate serves little purpose, at that point I generally do walk away. The usual claim of victorious defeat from an opponent, followed by an attempt at debasement does little to sway my choice in this, but does make future discussion less likely.
I am a member of a Debate Forum because I enjoy it (Usually), and because I have learned many things through interaction.
It seems that you do not want to discuss an issue that may be a bit sensitive. if you can't do so then you really don't belong on a forum.
I never claimed victory, victory in debate? That is pointless, it just seems that you are unwilling to learn anything that doesn't sync with what you already think, in that case I am defeated. but you were prior to even entering, you had no intention on being persuaded, you are committed to your belief so your purpose here isn't to debate but to attempt to trip people into sharing your belief.
None of my words, so many are true as you even admit had any effect on you we both lost, you don't understand my position any better.
Thus isn't a debate, especially when you walk away when things are staying to make sense.
Okay...as I understand it your position has been that laws (regulation) have no effect on the illegal gun activity, and therefore need not be attempted at all. That no law will stop the bad guys from using guns to be bad, and that trying to impact the illegal activity by increased legislation and regulation will enact no actual change, and may very well lead to removal of some rights we currently have.
You have been very clear in this continuously...I think I have an understanding of your position, though correct me please if I am wrong. My position has been somewhat supportive of yours in that we will not stop the violence, but that by at least trying we "Might" have some effect rather than none.
You then type this:
And while I obviously used the term "Might" (because I am unsure), you seem to be indicating you do know, and then follow up with a cryptic comment that we need to deal with the "Real Problem" which apparently I am supposed to already know even if you have not brought it up until now.
You are quite correct.....this is NOT debate, and so I have decided it is not worth my effort.
Gun violence is a symptom of a social ill, a law designed to tear the symptom doesn't fix the problem.
A majority of the gun violence is gang related. People join gangs for social acceptance, a group of outcasts is still a group. They do this because they don't get the attention that they need from their parents, either they are drug users, locked up, dead or absent. Either way it isn't their fault that they desire human social structure. It is a cycle that must be broken. We need to address it, otherness you can make it illegal to own guns eliminate them completely and these folks will still kill people.
I don't think that doing nothing is the answer, you never asked, i just don't think that making it more difficult for people to exercise their rights is the answer. Closing the "gun show loop hole" I am okay with. All that means is you have to be licensed by the ATF to sale guns at a gun show.
Expanding background checks? How much more background do you need? The one that exists now checks to see if you have committed felonies, violent misdemeanors, weather you have been institutionalized for mental issues, weather you're a foreign national, or if you are involved in some separatist groups. What more do we need to know? What more will help? The FBI takes a few minuets to do this.
I don't know what more you can add to a backgrounds check to make it more through, I also don't know what takes 3 days either. If you are talking about investigating a person, we don't have the man power. 270 millon guns are owned in this nation that means we need to do 270 million investigations into people's lives, maybe in a thousand years we would be finished with such investigations.
For the money and effort it will take I think it is more effective to aim for the cause.
Thus.....I clearly stated we will not prevent all the violence, but that we suck if we do not try.
I agree, but this clearly takes some thought. You don't just try random things, lets think about it.
I have thought about it, and come to a few conclusions:
1) We are unlikely to deal with the existing guns in our country.
2) We are unlikely to quell the tendencies of violent individuals in our society in the short term.
3) Existing gun laws have had very little effect and may have increased the problem due to a lack of enforcement creating a perception of impotency.
4) Due to Private interests, and influence within the Bodies we charge to deal with these issues, our government has no ability to assist in this crisis.
5) Considering the above, it seems the only viable course of action involves enhanced enforcement of existing law, and expanding the core of it to encompass more of the perpetrators of the violence.
Okay, that is irrelevant.
What more do you expect to find in a more extensive back ground check?
No you would NOT "have to hire a cop to follow around every gun owner to make sure they don't sell their guns to anybody". It's most likely that private gun sellers would quit person to person sales, because if/whenever that was made illegal, that seller would be jeopardizing his freedom, and risking a prison sentence every time he sold a gun. His ability to stay out of prison wold rest upon the criminals he sells to, keeping quiet about his identity. LOL. He's be pretty dumb to do that. There's no honor among thieves. People talk, and word gets around. Sooner or later somebody's gonna tell the cops, and then that gun seller goes to jail..
Only takes a couple of these cases to put a big chill on private gun selling.
1. To say the NRA lobbied for the people is ridiculous. 90% of the people oppose their position, and their position is based on greed. he mor eguns that are sold, the more money they make.
2. The "honest" citizens may not always know how "honest" are the people they're selling their guns to (including friends, neighbors, & family members). They, as well as anyone, should be required to insure the American public that the guns are going into safe hands.
3. If you were checked in 10 minutes, you weren't checked. It takes longer than that to do a national FBI check.
4. No, not everyone can buy a gun on the street. we're not talking about just criminal types. Sometimes law-abiding people get really angry at somebody and decide they want to shoot them. They would have no idea where to buy a gun on the street. And with street sales made illegal, gun sellers wouldn't want to trust gun buyers (any gun buyers) with keeping quiet about what they do. The prisons are loaded with drug sellers whose buyers couldn't (or weren't interested in) keep a secret. Wanna sell guns, and then depend on the buyers to keep you out of jail ? :giggle:
5. The NRA is endangering those kids by causing the EBC law to fail, allowing criminals and nuts to keep buying guns.
6. Nobody you know.
7. No effect on people it causes to be killed ? Are you allright ? I mean really. Pheeeww. No effect other than causing them to be killed, that's all.
And laws are for people who choose to obey them, but that would be a lot of people, including gun sellers on the street and in gun shows.
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